Harry,
I disagree, I believe we do impose a system on nature and any first year course in cultural anthropology will show you that. Mythology also shows us that. The 'order' that you claim we discoverwhich already exists in nature is based on certain notions of what counts as evidence and proof. The logical positivists that I mentioned in a recent posting to FW believed that the logic underlying mathematics is the rock solid foundation of empirical science.
Bertrand Russell admitted that Wittgenstein had shown this to be false in his Tractatus.. The logic of western science is not universal; it is part of a belief system . It requires faith on the part of its followers. Ray Monk documents this very well in his biographies of Wittgenstein and Russell. He uses Russell's own letters to say this. Amazon.com has excerpts from Monks work on Russell that includes these pages.
Harry you should read the last writings of Wittgenstein: "On Certainty". He wrote these ideas as he awaited his death from colon cancer. My very favourite passage was written 3 days before he died:
(On Certainty, 609-12):
"Supposing we met people who did not regard [the propositions of physics] as a telling reason [for action]. Now, how do we imagine this? Instead of the physicist, they consult an oracle. (And for that we consider them primitive.) Is it wrong for them to consult an oracle and be guided by it?---If we call this "wrong" aren't we using our language-game as a base from which to *combat* theirs?..
"And are we right to combat it? Of course there are all sorts of slogans which will be used to support our proceedings. Where two principles really do meet which cannot be reconciled with one another, then each man declares the other a fool and heretic. ..
"I said I would "combat" the other man,---but wouldn't I give him *reasons*? Certainly; but how far do they go? At the end of reasons comes *persuasion*. (Think what happens when missionaries convert natives.)"
Brian McAndrews
At 10:07 AM 2/2/2002 -0800, you wrote:
Brian,
I've been discussing the two Assumptions that precede all human sciences - but particularly the Science of Political Economy.
There are two assumptions that precede all Science.
"That there is an order in the universe."
and
"That the mind of man can find that order."
Why two? - Well as Bertrand Russell said "Better two assumptions than sixteen."
Actually, better two assumptions than three. The more you make the more chance of error - so you keep them few.
We don't "impose a system on nature". We look for the order in Nature that exists. We simply have to find it. That is, if we make the two primary general assumptions.
Which we must.
The last sentence of the piece is appropriate.
Harry
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Brian wrote:
Hi Pete,
Along with Whitman, I think this has relevance too:
Brian McAndrews
The Way We Are
(Taken from J. Burke, The Day the Universe Changed. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1985).
Somebody once observed to the eminent philosopher Wittgenstein how stupid medieval Europeans living before the time of Copernicus must have been that they could have looked at the sky and thought that the sun was circling the earth. Surely a modicum of astronomical good sense would have told them that reverse was true. Wittgenstein is said to have replied: 'I agree. But I wonder what it would have looked like if the sun had been circling the earth?"
The point is that it would look exactly the same. When we observe nature we see what we want to see, according to what we believe we know about it at the time. Nature is disordered, powerful and chaotic, and through fear of the chaos we impose a system on it�we classify nature into a coherent system which appears to do what we say it does.
This view of the universe permeates all aspects of our life. All communities in all places and at all times reveal their own view of reality in what they do. The entire culture reflects the contemporary model of reality. We are what we know. And when the body of knowledge changes, so do we.
Each change brings with it new entities and institutions created by new knowledge. These novel systems then either oust or coexist with the structures and attitudes held prior to the change. Our modern view is thus a mixture of present knowledge and past view points which have stood the test of time and, for one reason or another, remain valuable in the new circumstances. (p. 11)
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Harry Pollard
Henry George School of LA
Box 655
Tujunga CA 91042
Tel: (818) 352-4141
Fax: (818) 353-2242
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