----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Karen Watters Cole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:37 PM
Subject: Outrage ( was Re:
Rookies)
> Hi Ray,
>
> (REH)
> <<<<
> Karen, Keith,
> Good job on this. I would make a couple of points which you may or may not
> use.
> 1. Poor teacher performance and attitudes did not originate with the Unions
> which originated in the 1960s and which no one likes but is the only
> alternative to a management system that is usually mediocre and suffers the
> necessity of meeting the Democratic needs of educating the parents as well
> as children for any advances in education that occur.
> >>>>
>
> I agree. The unions are "merely" acting as job protectionists. The fact
> that the quality of teacher is going down (at least in England and America)
> is because the bright graduates are going into other better-paid jobs with
> far less daily stress (in the case of teaching in inner-city schools).
>
> (REH)
> <<<<
> Karen, Keith,
> Good job on this. I would make a couple of points which you may or may not
> use.
> 1. Poor teacher performance and attitudes did not originate with the Unions
> which originated in the 1960s and which no one likes but is the only
> alternative to a management system that is usually mediocre and suffers the
> necessity of meeting the Democratic needs of educating the parents as well
> as children for any advances in education that occur.
> >>>>
>
> I agree. The unions are "merely" acting as job protectionists. The fact
> that the quality of teacher is going down (at least in England and America)
> is because the bright graduates are going into other better-paid jobs with
> far less daily stress (in the case of teaching in inner-city schools).
Hi Keith, Unions don't only do
that over here. They do other things like police professionalism
amongst there members but the real problem, as I see it, is the poor pay and the
competitive bargaining model. Schools should recieve comparable pay
to expertise in the private sector. Pay is a substitute for
value in America. No other group will put up with what
teachers do with such a continous devaluing of their work. Attitude
is Mood -> Feeling = Action and the constant demeaning of public school
teachers in good schools is going to give you lousy attitude at the very
least. College costs over $100,000 for anundergraduate degree in a
moderate school in America. Teachers can't even pay off their
loans on the salaries they recieve. So I think you are beating
a crippled horse. Who else is going to defend them?
> (REH)
> >>>>
> 2. Many teachers can't do what Keith points out but neither has Keith
> proven that he can do what they teach and excell in either, as well as the
> critical thinking that our children do that is closer to college level
> logic than anything that we encountered in school. It is just as likely
> that we are experiencing an explosion of knowledge where older forms, which
> were good but just too much information, are forced to be dropped in favor
> of that which is more appropriate to the information age. My daughter is
> not less prepared for that than I and she handles information considerably
> faster and more easily than I.
> >>>>
>
> I agree that many of the more able students today have subtle skills that
> the older generation don't possess. How many of these are acquired on the
> wing -- a product of today's environment -- and how many specifically
> taught, is another matter. It's to be remembered that the young today are
> acquiring many attitudes (such as deep scepticism about politics) which are
> not formally taught.
>
> (REH)
> <<<<
> 3. To compare this to schools where drugs are high & immigrant or low
> income parents are alienated from the greater knowledge of children that
> more and more refuse to even listen to parents who don't know what they
> know, seems insensitive at best and incompetent at worst. I don't find that
> the teachers that taught my daughter in New York City K-12 are ignorant,
> poorly prepared, or haven't done the work required. But I did find
> incompetant questions on the Intelligence tests that were baised and
> historically inaccurate and more appropriate to the upper class pretensions
> of the people who do well on those tests than students on the Upper West
> Side of Manhattan.
> >>>>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean -- unless you are referring to the huge
> differences in the quality of schools between the inner cities and the suburbs.
Those models don't work here. The
terrible neighborhoods are not inner city in New York. There are
terrible blocks and inadequate funding for educational tools everywhere but you
should have heard the Brahms 2nd played by the orchestra at my daughter's school
and the Carmina Burana was a good as anything South of the New York
Philharmonic. Your newspapers are much finer than America's
but they too suffer from the desire to show you the worst in order to sell
papers. No one really talks about the overall exceptional
level of a very complicated and chaotic city that has more room on its subway
than the populations in most of the cities of America. (and that is
not counting the ones standing) The closest school system to New York in
size is less than half the size of the NYCity Schools
systems. We have over a million children in school
here and so generalizations are tough. You will also find that
ethnic competition here does a tremendous amount in holding people back and
creating general mischief.
> Can't think what to
say on the rest of your post. I tried to figure out
> what you meant when you wrote: "As for your outrageous statement about
> pedagogy and its necessity, you are way out of line" -- but had to give up,
> I'm afraid. There are many outrageous things in this life (such as CEOs'
> salaries) but surely nothing I'm able to write.
>
> Keith
> what you meant when you wrote: "As for your outrageous statement about
> pedagogy and its necessity, you are way out of line" -- but had to give up,
> I'm afraid. There are many outrageous things in this life (such as CEOs'
> salaries) but surely nothing I'm able to write.
>
> Keith
See reply to Mandirins and Monks.
Cheers,
Ray
