The old joke is that the reason that the invisible hand is invisible is that it is usually in your (the citizen/consumer's) pocket.
-----Original Message----- From: Ed Weick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:22 PM To: Selma Singer; Brad McCormick, Ed.D.; Ray Evans Harrell; Harry Pollard Cc: Mantle, Rosalyn; Anthony, David; Bradskey, Teresa; Cole, Karen Watters; Dawn Anthony; Downs , Jason; Dunn, Darcy; H, Joan; harrell, jane; Krueger, Jack A.; Sagowa; Sleigh, Ben and Roz; Watters, Valorie; futurework Subject: Re: Whining ("Stop it! And say: 'Thank you'! .... ) Selma, the answer is that the invisible hand is someone's hand, but it's often really hard to figure out whose it is. Ed Ed Weick 577 Melbourne Ave. Ottawa, ON, K2A 1W7 Canada Phone (613) 728 4630 Fax (613) 728 9382 > I haven't been reading too many of these very carefully so just delete this > if it has been mentioned before, but has anyone mentioned (in the context of > this invisible hand and free competition, etc.)corporate price-fixing, > government bail-outs of failing corporations,etc.etc.? How do these things > fit in this'free', 'competitive' market'? do these things and the myriad of > other dynamics like them not interfere with the 'free', 'competitive' part > that is supposed to control this invisible hand? > > Selma > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ray Evans Harrell" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Mantle, Rosalyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Anthony, David" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bradskey, Teresa" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Cole, Karen Watters" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dawn Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Downs , > Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dunn, Darcy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "H, Joan" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "harrell, jane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Krueger, > Jack A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Sagowa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Sleigh, > Ben and Roz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Watters, Valorie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > "futurework" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 12:35 PM > Subject: Re: Whining ("Stop it! And say: 'Thank you'! .... ) > > > > I explained the Invisible Hand, Brad, but maybe you didn't read it. > > > > When people are allowed freely to trade, each side of the exchange will be > > better off. When everyone is free to exchange (and is therefore better > > off) the whole community (as if by an invisible hand) will be better > off. > > > > Now the alternative to being allowed freely to trade, is not being allowed > > freely to trade. In other words, coercion of some kind takes the place of > > freedom. > > > > Your "fair price" has popped up often in history and is always advocated > by > > the powerful at the expense of the people. A "fair price" ( like "fair > > trade") is no more than the general populace being forced to pay more than > > they want to. > > > > People will not pay the "fair price" - which is really an unfair price - > > unless they are made to by police of some kind. So, Brad when you sneer at > > the invisible hand, you are viewing contemptuously a free people making > > their own decisions. > > > > Ray said he would buy gas from his neighborhood Indian friend - even > though > > he was more expensive. Well, in a free system, you may buy from whomsoever > > you wish. He probably feels happy with himself for putting family and > > loyalty before saving money. In a free system he may enjoy doing this. > Like > > him, I wouldn't buy from Exxon. Exxon gas is too expensive. > > > > You call it "trying to squeeze the last little bit of blood out of each of > > us turnips". In the real world, outside the fevered landscape of your > > imagination, it is called "sales". Millions of Americans chase after the > > lowest prices at their stores. My son went to Fry's "One Day Sale" > > yesterday to buy a computer case with power supply for $25 dollars - with > > a $25 mail-in rebate. (Only about 14% actually claim their rebates which > > is why this works for the store.) He spent about 75 minutes getting in the > > store and an hour getting out through the cashier. > > > > But everyone was happy with their bargains and their is a lot of > > camaraderie among the bargain hunters. Not a bad experience and he saved > > the $35-$40 he would have had to earn in order to get$25 in his pocket. He > > told me that a 27" TV complete with a VHS recorder was $297 - which looks > > pretty good to me. > > > > I'm sure that if you had explained to the happy crowd that they were > > squeezing "the last little bit of blood" out of the Fry's turnip, they > > would have looked at you in the way you deserved to be looked at. > > > > Then you grandiosely declaim that "in a world in which all human relations > > have been reduced to exchange relations" without fully understanding what > > you are writing. All human relations are exchange relations. > > > > In the very best free society, we cooperate with each other without > outside > > restriction. E-Mail lists are good examples of exchanging information, > > opinion, and ideological truths (also ideological lies, but that's > > something for the consumer to handle). > > > > I don't know why you brought in the nuclear power bit. I haven't bought a > > nuclear power plant in years. It6 seems to me that you are inclined to > > bring in examples of things which are part of the industrial/governmental > > complex - then vent your spleen on them as if they were free market > > operations. You say that the procurement process "leads in the long run to > > total disorientation and inability to function". > > > > So, that's the problem with government operations. Thank you for the > > explanation. But it has nothing to do with the free market - or the > > invisible hand. > > > > You then segue to travelling by air. Back in the days you mention, flying > > was mostly the province of the wealthy and those getting trips paid for by > > their companies. Then the airlines were de-regulated and competition - as > > you call it 'squeezing the turnip' - reared its ugly head. > > > > Guess what happened - the great unwashed found air fares were cheap enough > > for them to fly. Of course this was terrible for the elite who used to do > > the flying. I've heard them complaining and wishing the old days were back > > - where fares were higher, but they didn't have to rub shoulders with the > > hoi polloi. > > > > Competition is still somewhat thwarted by the Airport Gate system, but it > > is better than it was. > > > > Meantime, if you were to pay $1,200 while the seat next to you went for > > $200, I would say you made a grievous error (unless like Ray you bought > the > > ticket because you prize "family and loyalty above saving a few pennies"). > > > > You see the free market doesn't supply a mummy or daddy to take care of > > you. You have to take care of yourself. Lick your wounds and next time you > > fly try to do it for $150. > > > > Harry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > Brad wrote: > > > > >Ray Evans Harrell wrote: > > >[snip] > > > > Indians prize family and loyalty above saving a few pennies for > > > > gas. > > >[snip] > > > > > >I believe (until proven otherwise...) that most of the > > >damage The Invisible Hand does to us is the result of > > >it trying to squeeze the last little bit of blood > > >out of each of us turnips -- i.e., that the road to > > >hell is paved with the logic of pursuing the > > >lowest price (lowest wage, etc.), as opposed to > > >a fair price (wage, etc.). > > > > > >But in a world in which all human relations have been > > >reduced to exchange relations, doesn't is sound > > >pathetic for someone to say: "Buy my nuclear power > > >plant even though is costs $100,000,001 instead > > >of my competitor's plant which costs > > >$100,000,000, because mine is built by > > >people who care about their work whereas my > > >comptetitor's is built by people who > > >cower in fear that they will lose their job > > >if they don't work mandatory voluntary > > >overtime to show their good attitude? > > > > > >To let such considerations affect the > > >procurement process leads in the long run to total > > >disorientation and inability to function, > > >since if we are irrational about $1, the next > > >thing we know we may be irrational about $2, > > >then $4 (it's called "The Domino Theory").... > > >And the next thing you know, workers might > > >start demanding better working conditions because > > >they don't know their place any more.... > > > > > >I remember a time, back around 1973, when > > >air fares were pretty much proportionate to > > >distance travelled. The company I worked for > > >was already modernizing, however: They stopped > > >sending non-executive employees first class > > >*after* I had been sent on a couple business > > >trips under the old policy. The first time > > >I was sent coach class, I remember I decided to > > >pay the difference myself. It was a trip > > >from Detroit to Baltimore. The difference was > > >$9. Yes, I know, $9 was a small fortune > > >in those days, equivalent to the diffence > > >between one passenger paying $200 and the passenger > > >in the next seat having paid $600 (if not $1,200), > > >today. But there is a difference: The difference > > >in price back they was based on a difference > > >in what you got for your money. Today the > > >difference is based on the highest price a computer > > >program figures out each seat can > > >be sold for, even though what the money buys > > >in all cases -- from the $200 to the $1,200 -- is > > >the same. As we saw at the beginning, > > >this is Universal Reason Manifesting Itself in > > >World History, because each of us > > >pays the lowest price for everything > > >(even that $1,200 seat where we squeeze next to > > >the dude who bought an identical seat for > > >$200 because he bought his seat a few hours > > >earlier or later).... > > > > > >Who says that our Emperor Dubya I's new clothes are > > >not opaque (--I meant: Made by the lowest cost > > >producer)? > > \brad mccormick > > > > > > ****************************** > > Harry Pollard > > Henry George School of LA > > Box 655 > > Tujunga CA 91042 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Tel: (818) 352-4141 > > Fax: (818) 353-2242 > > ******************************* > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.416 / Virus Database: 232 - Release Date: 11/6/2002 > > >
