Too late. Rats!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "futurework" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] It isn't about only oil or daddy but about addiction and morality. > Ray, > > Erase "Rat" - insert "Ray". > > It wasn't a Freudian slip - just poor typing. > > Harry > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Rat, > > > >Thanks - a great interview! > > > >Harry > >------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Ray wrote: > > > >>For those who don't know: Bill Moyers is a Baptist Minister. (The old > >>time religion type that I knew growing up. The type of human being who > >>believes the intention of humanity should be to achieve wisdom through > >>the understanding of all sides.) I watched this interview and was > >>moved. So I decided to share it with you. > >> > >> REH > >> > >> > >>Transcript - Bill Moyers Talks with Chris Hedges > >> > >>MOYERS: Some weeks ago we discussed on NOW the Pentagon's plan to attack > >>Iraq with 'shock and awe.' That's the strategy first reported by CBS News > >>of unleashing 3,000 precision bombs and Cruise missiles in the first 48 > >>hours after President Bush gives the order. > >> > >>Now the Chairman of the Joint Chief's of Staff has come forward with more > >>details on how the strategy is expected to work. "The best way to get a > >>short war", he says, "is to have such a shock on the system, that the > >>Iraqi regime would have to assume early on, that the end was inevitable." > >> > >>The General was admirably candid. Quote: "We need to condition people > >>that this is war. People get the idea this is going to be antiseptic. > >>Well, it's not gonna be. People are gonna die." > >> > >>I read those words just after finishing this book, WAR IS A FORCE THAT > >>GIVES US MEANING. Its author, Chris Hedges, knows about war. Knows about > >>people dying from close up experience. As a foreign correspondent for the > >>NEW YORK TIMES, Chris Hedges covered the Balkans, the Middle East, > >>including the first Gulf War where he was captured, and Central America. > >> > >>Last year he was a member of the team of reporters that won the Pulitzer > >>Prize for the NEW YORK TIMES coverage of global terrorism. Chris Hedges > >>now writes the column, "Public Lives." He's also, by the way, a graduate > >>of the Harvard Divinity School. Welcome to NOW. > >> > >>HEDGES: Thank you. > >> > >>MOYERS: When you hear the General describe an attack of 3,000 missiles on > >>Iraq, what comes through your mind? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well not images of shock and awe. Images of large numbers of > >>civilian dead. Destroyed buildings. Panic in the corridors of hospitals. > >>Families that can't reach parts of the city that have been devastated and > >>are desperate for news of their loved ones. All of the images of war that > >>I've seen for most of the past two decades come to mind. > >> > >>MOYERS: I heard a description of 'shock and awe' again on National Public > >>Radio yesterday and then they came on with a report, a first-hand report > >>from Kurds in Northern Iraq of how they had been tortured by Saddam > >>Hussein. Cruelly, brutally, creatively tortured. Is there any kinship > >>between what happens to civilians in a war like we're about to launch and > >>what happens to them under the regime of a Saddam Hussein? And is there > >>any moral relativism there? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, I don't think you can justify unleashing 3,000 > >>precision-guided missiles in 48 hours because Saddam Hussein is a > >>torturer. Which he is. And I covered that whole withdrawal of the Iraqi > >>forces from Northern Iraq. I was not only in the subterranean bowels of > >>the Secret Police Headquarters where we found not only documentation but > >>videotapes of executions. Horrible torture centers. People being- you > >>know where the meat hooks were still sort of fastened into the ceiling of > >>soundproof rooms. > >> > >>And then these mass graves. We were digging up as many as a thousand, > >>1,500 people. But that does not give you a moral justification to carry > >>out what is, quite candidly, indiscriminate attack against civilians. > >>That's what's going to happen when you drop this number of high explosive > >>devices in an urban area. > >> > >>MOYERS: Does the inevitability of civilian casualties make this war > >>illegitimate? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, I think the war is illegitimate not because civilians will > >>die. Civilians die in every conflict. It's illegitimate because the > >>administration has not, to my mind, provided any evidence of any credible > >>threat. And we can't go to war just because we think somebody might do > >>something eventually. > >> > >>There has to be hard intelligence. There has to be a real threat if we're > >>going to ask our young men and women to die. > >> > >>Because once you unleash the "dogs of war" and I know this from every war > >>I've ever covered, war has a force of its own. It's not surgical. We talk > >>about taking out Saddam Hussein. Once you use the blunt instrument of > >>war, it has all sorts of consequences when you use violence on that scale > >>that you can't anticipate. I'm not opposed to the use of force. But force > >>is always has to be the last resort because those who wield force become > >>tainted or contaminated by it. And one of the things that most frightens > >>me about the moment our nation is in now, is that we've lost touch with > >>the notion of what war is. > >> > >>At the end of the Vietnam War, we became a better country in our defeat. > >>We asked questions about ourselves that we had not asked before. We were > >>humbled, maybe even humiliated. We were forced to step outside of > >>ourselves and look at us as others saw us. And it wasn't a pretty sight. > >> > >>But we became a better country for it. A much better country. Gradually > >>war's good name if we can-- between quotes, can say was resurrected. > >>Certainly during the Reagan Era. Granada, Panama. Culminating with the > >>Persian Gulf War. We're in a war - the very essence of war was hidden > >>from us. And the essence of war is death. War is necrophilia. That's what > >>it is. > >> > >>MOYERS: Tell me, having covered the first Gulf War, what the men and > >>women who are about to go into Iraq are going to experience. > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, the ones who are up on the front line are - especially as > >>they prepare to go into battle - are going to have to come face-to-face > >>with the myth of war. The myth of heroism, the myth of patriotism. The > >>myth of glory. All those myths that have the ability to arouse us when > >>we're not in mortal danger. > >> > >>And they're going to have to confront their own mortality. And at that > >>moment some people will be crying, some people will be vomiting. People > >>will not speak much. Everyone will realize that from here on out, at > >>least until the fighting ends, it will be a constant minute-by-minute > >>battle with fear. And that sometimes fear wins. And anybody who tells you > >>differently has never been in a war. > >> > >>MOYERS: And yet you say in your book that the first Gulf War, that we > >>made war fun. > >> > >>HEDGES: For those who weren't there. You know the - I was with the U.S. > >>Marine Corps and they hated CNN. They hated that flag-waving, jingoism > >>that dominated the coverage on, or dominated so much of the coverage.all > >>those abstract terms that create the excitement back home become obscene > >>to those who are in combat. > >> > >>MOYERS: You say also in the book that the first Gulf War made war more > >>fashionable again. > >> > >>HEDGES: Right. > >> > >>MOYERS: What do you mean by that? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, it was you know so much of commercial news has not become > >>an extension of the entertainment industry. And the war became > >>entertainment. The Army had no more candor than they did in Vietnam. But > >>what they perfected was the appearance of candor. Live press conferences. > >>And well-packaged video clips of Sidewinder missiles hitting planes or > >>going down chimneys. You know this kind of stuff. > >> > >>It's- and the fact that they covered up death. Not only the death of our > >>own. But the death of tens of thousands of Iraqis who were killed. They > >>were nameless, faceless phantoms. When we the victims, if you watch the > >>news reports carefully, were our young men who were out in the desert > >>having to sort of bathe out of a bucket and eat MRE's. > >> > >>So it was completely mythic, or mendacious narrative that was presented > >>to us. And I was a little delayed getting back to New York because I was > >>a prisoner with the Iraqi Republican Guard. But I remember landing into > >>New York and even then the mood was that we'd just won the Super Bowl. > >> > >>And it frightened me and it disgusted me. And it wasn't because I didn't > >>believe that we shouldn't have gone into Kuwait. I believe we had no > >>choice. But I certainly understood that we, as a nation, had completely > >>lost touch with what war is. And when we lose touch with what war is, > >>when we believe that our technology makes us invulnerable. That we can > >>wage war and others can die and we won't - then eventually, if history is > >>any guide, we are going to stumble into a horrific swamp. > >> > >>MOYERS: I read your book last night. One of the most chilling and > >>haunting scenes in here is when, I think you were in El Salvador, and a > >>young man was behind you. He's calling out, "mama." > >> > >>HEDGES: Yeah. > >> > >>MOYERS: "Mama." > >> > >>HEDGES: It's not uncommon when soldiers die that they call out for their > >>mother. And that always seems to me to cut through the absurd posturing > >>of soldiering. > >> > >>MOYERS: Three times when you were in El Salvador you were threatened with > >>death. You received death threats. The Embassy got you out. > >> > >>HEDGES: That's right. > >> > >>MOYERS: You went back. > >> > >>HEDGES: Yes. Because I believe that it was better to live for one intense > >>and overpowering moment, even if it meant my own death, rather than go > >>back to the routine of life. > >> > >>MOYERS: War is an addiction, as you say. Let me read you this: "during a > >>lull I dashed." this is you. > >> > >>HEDGES: Right. > >> > >>MOYERS: Read this for me. > >> > >>HEDGES: "During a lull I dashed across an empty square and found shelter > >>behind a house. My heart was racing. Adrenaline coursed through my > >>bloodstream. I was safe. I made it back to the capital. And like most war > >>correspondents, I soon considered the experience a great cosmic joke. I > >>drank away the fear and excitement in a seedy bar in downtown San > >>Salvador. Most people, after such an experience, would learn to stay > >>away. I was hooked. " > >> > >>MOYERS: You were hooked on? > >> > >>HEDGES: War. On the most powerful narcotic invented by humankind, is war. > >> > >>MOYERS: What is the narcotic? What is it that's the poisonous allure? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well the Bible calls it, "The lust of the eye." And warns > >>believers against it. It's that great landscape of the grotesque. It's > >>that power to destroy. > >> > >>I mean one of the most chilling things you learn in war is that human > >>beings like to destroy. Not only other things but other human beings. And > >>when unit discipline would break down or there was no unit discipline to > >>begin with, you would go into a town and people's eyes were glazed over. > >>They sputtered gibberish. > >> > >>Houses were burning. They had that power to revoke the charter. That > >>divine-like power, to revoke the charter of another human being's place > >>on this planet. And they used it. > >> > >>MOYERS: I would have thought that being captured and held by the Iraqis > >>as you were, would have cured you of your addiction. But yet it didn't. > >> > >>HEDGES: No. > >> > >>MOYERS: I still don't understand it. I have to be honest. I mean I just > >>don't understand why you keep putting yourself back into that which you hate. > >> > >>HEDGES: Well because the experience itself, that adrenaline-driven rush > >>of war. That sense that you know we have a vital mission that, as > >>journalists, that we ennoble ourselves. I mean I think one of the things > >>I tried very hard to do in the book was show the dark side of what we do. > >> > >>I mean I admire the courage and the integrity of many of the men and > >>women I worked with, but I do think there is a very dark side to what we > >>do. And it becomes very hard to live outside of a war zone. It's why this > >>small - my comrades, these groups of war correspondents and photographers > >>- would leap from war-to-war. > >> > >>It's no accident that I was covering the war in Kosovo with people I had > >>covered the war with in El Salvador two decades earlier. You go out of > >>Sarajevo and be in a hotel in Paris and would be pacing the halls because > >>you couldn't adjust. When you stepped outside war it's literally as if > >>you sort of see the world around you from the end of a long tunnel. > >> > >>And I often would feel that I was physically here but I was really sort > >>of four paces behind. You're incredibly disconnected from the world > >>around you. And if you spend long enough in war, it's finally the only > >>place that you can feel at home. And that's, of course, a sickness. But I > >>had it. > >> > >>MOYERS: But doesn't is also creates a sense of camaraderie among men who > >>are fighting it. What happens then? > >> > >>HEDGES: Comradeship is something that's attainable. Everyone can attain > >>in wartime. Once you have that external threat. I mean I think we felt > >>this a little bit after 9-11. We no longer faced death alone. We faced > >>death as a group. > >> > >>And for that reason it becomes easier to bear. > >> > >>MOYERS: How do you explain the phenomenon that while we venerate and > >>mourn our own dead from say 9-11, we're curiously indifferent about those > >>we're about to kill. > >> > >>HEDGES: Because we dehumanize the Other. We fail to recognize the > >>divinity of all human life. We- our own victims are the only victims that > >>hold worth. The victims of the Other are sort of the regrettable cost of > >>war. There is such a moral dichotomy in war. Such a frightening dichotomy > >>that the world becomes a tableau of black and white, good and evil. > >> > >>You see this in the rhetoric of the Bush Administration. They are the > >>barbarians. I mean we begin to mirror them. You know for them we're the > >>infidels and we call them the barbarians. > >> > >>MOYERS: It happened in the Johnson Administration too. The President > >>spoke of bringing the coonskin home. > >> > >>HEDGES: Right. But that's because war is the same disease. And that's the > >>point of the book is that it doesn't matter if I'm an Argentine or El > >>Salvador or the occupied territories or Iraq. It's all the same sickness. > >> > >>MOYERS: The world is sick too, this is a savage world, as we keep being > >>reminded. > >> > >>You do think that United States faces a threat? A threat from whatever we > >>want to call it? That produced 9/11? You think we are at danger? > >> > >>HEDGES: Yes. But not from Iraq. > >> > >>MOYERS: So how do we, taking into account the moral issues that you raise. > >> > >>HEDGES: Right. > >> > >>MOYERS: How do we protect ourselves, defend our security, do the right > >>thing and yet not be taken by surprise again? > >> > >>HEDGES: By having the courage to be vulnerable. By not folding in on > >>ourselves. By not becoming like those who are arrayed against us. By not > >>using their rhetoric and not adopting their worldview. > >> > >>What we did after 9/11 was glorify ourselves, denigrate the others. We're > >>certainly, now at this moment, denigrating the French and the Germans > >>who, after all, are our allies. And we created this global troika with > >>Vladimir Putin and Ariel Sharon. > >> > >>One fifth of the world's population, most of whom are not Arabs, look at > >>us through the prism of Chechnya and Palestine. And yes, we certainly > >>have to hunt down Osama bin Laden. I would like to see those who carried > >>out 9/11, in so far as it is possible, go on trial for the crimes against > >>humanity that they committed. But we must also begin to address the roots > >>of that legitimate rage and anger that is against us. > >> > >>It has to be a twofold battle. We are not going to stop terrorism through > >>violence. You see that in Israel. In some ways, the best friend Hamas has > >>is Ariel Sharon, because every time the Israelis send warplanes to bomb a > >>refugee camp or tanks into Ramallah, it weakens and destroys that > >>moderate center within the Palestinian community. > >> > >>And essentially creates two apocalyptic visions. One on the extreme right > >>wing of Israeli politics. And certainly one on the extreme wing of the > >>Palestinian community. And when these apocalyptic visionaries move to the > >>center of society, then the world becomes exceedingly dangerous. And > >>that's what I fear. And that's what- and, but that requires us not to > >>resort, which is a natural kind of reaction, a kind of almost knee-jerk > >>reaction, to the use of force when force is used against us. > >> > >>MOYERS: So is it enough in this kind of world just to be good? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, nobody's good. I mean we're all sinners and God loves us > >>anyway. That's the whole point. And we live in a fallen world and it's > >>never between the choice is never between good and evil. > >> > >>The choice. or moral and immoral, as Reinhold Niebuhr reminds us. The > >>choice is always between immoral and more immoral. And I don't think. > >> > >>MOYERS: I don't think Americans feel immoral about what happened to them > >>on 9/11. Or. > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, nor should they. > >> > >>MOYERS: No, we're listening to the report of Saddam Hussein's torture of > >>his own people. That I don't think they feel the same way as they think > >>he feels. > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, he's a tyrant. And you know we. 9/11 is not the issue. The > >>issue is once we unleash force of that magnitude. And I think theologians > >>like Niebuhr would argue that we must do so and ask for forgiveness. > >> > >>That we, you know, when you make a choice in the world, and of course one > >>always has to, one has to remember that there are consequences for that > >>choice that create injustice and tragedy for others. And that's what it's > >>important to always remember and be aware of. > >> > >>I think you go back and read Abraham Lincoln and he was very aware of > >>this. And that's what made him a great leader. And in many ways a great > >>moral philosopher. > >> > >>MOYERS: Can people who plan wars, president and generals, afford to be > >>influenced by people like you who abhor war? Who anguish over war? > >> > >>HEDGES: Well, I think any soldier that's been through combat hates war in > >>the way that only somebody who's seen war can. It's those that lose touch > >>with war and find it euphoric that frighten me. > >> > >>MOYERS: But doesn't power exercised with ruthlessness always win? > >> > >>HEDGES: Power exercised with ruthlessness always is able to crush the > >>gentle and the compassionate. But I don't believe it always wins. > >>Thucydides wrote about the war with Sparta that, yes, raw Spartan > >>militarism in the short-term could conquer Athens. But that beauty, art, > >>knowledge, philosophy, would long outlive Sparta and Spartan militarism. > >> > >>And he consoled himself with that. I think in the short-term, yes, > >>violence and force can win. But in the long-term, it leaves nothing but > >>hollowness, emptiness. It does nothing to enrich our lives or propel us > >>forward as human beings. > >> > >>MOYERS: What would you like most as - what would you most like us to be > >>thinking about this weekend as it looks as if war is about to happen? > >> > >>HEDGES: That this isn't just about the destruction of Iraq and the death > >>of Iraqis. It's about self-destruction. > >> > >>MOYERS: How so? What's happening to us? > >> > >>HEDGES: Our whole civil society is being torn apart. Once again, as is > >>true in every war, the media parrots back the clich�s and jingles of the > >>state. Imbibes and promotes the myth. In wartime, a press is-- the press > >>is always part of the problem. > >> > >>And that we are about to engage in that ecstatic, exciting, narcotic that > >>is war. And that if we don't get a grasp on the poison that war is, then > >>that poison can ultimately kills us just as surely as the disease. > >> > >>MOYERS: What have you learned as a journalist covering war that we ought > >>to know on the eve of this attack on Iraq? > >> > >>HEDGES: That everybody or every generation seems to have- seems not to > >>listen to those who went through it before and bore witness to it. But > >>falls again for the myth. And has to learn it through a tragedy inflicted > >>upon their young. > >> > >>That war is always about betrayal. It's about betrayal of soldiers by > >>politicians. And it's about betrayal of the young by the old. > >> > >>MOYERS: I believe that George W. Bush tonight as you and I talk is > >>convinced he's about to do good. A necessary act that he thinks is making > >>a moral claim on the world. Do you believe that? > >> > >>HEDGES: I believe that he feels that. But I think anybody who believes > >>that they understand the will of God and can act as an agent for God is > >>dangerous. > >> > >>MOYERS: If the NEW YORK TIMES asked you to go cover the war the next > >>month, would you go? > >> > >>HEDGES: No. No. I'm finished. > >> > >>MOYERS: The book is WAR IS A FORCE THAT GIVES US MEANING, by Chris > >>Hedges. Thank you for being with us. > > > > > > > >****************************** > >Harry Pollard > >Henry George School of LA > >Box 655 > >Tujunga CA 91042 > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Tel: (818) 352-4141 > >Fax: (818) 353-2242 > >******************************* > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003 > > ****************************** > Harry Pollard > Henry George School of LA > Box 655 > Tujunga CA 91042 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Tel: (818) 352-4141 > Fax: (818) 353-2242 > ******************************* > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003 > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
