Brad, Here is the data.
Deaths per performance: 10,000 to 50,000 Numbers of performances per year? 52 to 102 Numbers of years? 300 years plus Now here is an interesting question. How many people were there in the ancient world? Could it have sustained a 520,000 killing rate per year given the number of people in the ancient world. One of the things that I have noticed about these figures is how thousands die in battles at times when the cities wouldn't sustain with their sanitation, more than 50 or 60 thousand. Ancient Rome was supposed to be several million people but we know that London at less than a million during the time of Dickens, overwhelmed their drinking water with their sewage and made the periodic fires a blessing although everyone lost their home and thousands lost their lives. We also know that when it comes to determining how many people you killed in some atrocity there is the reverse tendency to vastly underrate the number of people killed. For example, the environmental studies of how many people it would take to both 1. change the environment and 2. use up the amount of food grown in that changed in environment in e.g. Hispanola was about 8 million at the time of Columbus's landfall. One hundred years later there were 100 Arawaks left. If that had been the Coliseum figures with two shows a week there would have been 40,000 deaths per show which would have equaled the Romans on a medium to good day if the Romans weren't just bragging. Now that bragging factor is interesting. The Priest's at Tenochtitlan claimed to have sacrificed for the occasional great festival i.e. building dedication, etc. 10,000 hearts on the three altars on the top of the temple Major in Tenochtitlan. Now they had to spread the person over a rock, extract the heart while still beating with a stone knife, take care of the sacred heart to send the person to live with the Gods, and cut up the body throwing it down the temple steps into the waiting crowd below. 10,000 people divided by three altars divided into 5760 minutes (four days) gives you a breakdown of the human body every one and three quarters minutes (Check my math Keith, you know I'm not good at using calculators). Say they had a second temple, perhaps over at Quetzlcoatl's or Tezcatlipoca as well you would still have a constant flow of people at the most under five minutes per individual 24 hours non stop, and that assumes that they weren't struggling. So I suspect there was some psychological warfare going on here when the defeated Aztecs told the Spanish Scribes what had happened or maybe the Christians just inflated the figures the same way they did in most battles. It is generally accepted that it was the mud at Agincourt that killed all those thousands of French Cavalry if there were thousands. Like I said, the cities were not as big as their mouths. It is construction and environmental studies that have set Tenochtitlan's population at its height at 250,000 and that was because they had a source of fresh water on an Island sitting in the middle of a brackish lake. They had one of the most innovative and ecologically useful sewer systems in the world including today. They had boats that served as toilets that took the material across the lake to the gardens where they mixed it and used it to grow the finest gardens in the world at the time. The lake was also abloom with floating gardens that also provided food and flowers for city beautification. Compare that to the contemporary London of Henry the VIIIth which could barely sustain 58,000 people and was a European world capital with its own head racks over the walls of the city. Well let me get back to the key issue here about truth and show bizness. The Nazis burned and gassed people to turn them into products for bizness while the Romans did it for show and the Aztecs did it for Religion. Since the Romans and Aztecs didn't hide it but put it out in front of the public, I am not averse to the religious aspects of the Romans as well as the show biz aspects in the big ceremonies at Tenochtitlan. We know the figures on the Nazis because they kept good records. But the Romans and Aztecs could have faked it and they certainly didn't do an "extermination of scale" like the business efficient Nazis. (On second thought I know at least one people the Aztecs exterminated and I'm sure some of you Romanophiles could tell me about a "tribe" exterminated by the Romans as well.) (For an URL more contemporary that the Romans you might check: http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=830342&pageid=r&mode=ALL&query=genoc ide) At the rate the Nazis were going they would eliminate their business before much longer than the five years they worked at it. I wonder if without the war, Hitler would have given them a "concentration camp depletion allowance" on their taxes as a result of their running out of resources. Remember the camps were not just to reclaim gold and find industrial and medical uses for human products but they also freed the Aryans to go prove their heroism and blood superiority on the actual field of battle while the workers served as "Dwarfs ala Wagner or more contemporary as in Tolkein's trilogy." Actually the Nazis and Fascists were the Industrialized modern economic version of all of the enemy stories that had been told in the past to justify conquest and genocide. They were not however the first to create a market in human products. In the 1880s the Americans had a market in human bones, especially Craniums that was so extensive that Franz Boas asked the Natural History Museum in New York City to offer a $600 price tag for any complete American Indian skeleton. It was said that one could not go around the Army Posts in the West because of the fat rendering stench as the soldiers boiled the fat and muscle off of the bones for sale. Today the thousands of skeletons in museums are a matter of legal dispute as the Indians are suing for the remains of their grandfathers in order to give them a proper burial. I remember going to the Museum of Anthropology in Vancouver and opening drawer after drawer filled with the moccasins of children finely beaded by mothers for the little feet. Moccasins of all sizes. I couldn't help but wonder if the people these moccasins were hand made for had survived the collection of the shoes. The terms holocaust and genocide are recent ways of thinking (1944) about things that were considered patriotic to one's group. In fact the term Realpolitik practiced for 500 years by such historical luminaries as Richelieu, Metternich, Bismarck, and Kissinger was just a game of political chess with nation-states, balancing and maneuvering one against the other to gain military advantage or equilibrium. Finally, I must admit to considering all of these events first as an Artist as to their probability of having happened. The Religious Tolerance.org site (type genocide into their search engine) is a help in a confessional sort of way but today's guilt has become the way that people now brag about the numbers. The most guilt (confessor) or the greatest victim has ended up stretching the figures. Science helps but is not immune to political hedging based upon the power of the confessor or victim in the current world. The theater helps me keep my feet on the ground as I consider just HOW such things could have happened if they did. While we doubt things like Joshua talking the walls into falling with the sound of his trumpets, excavation of the walls show that they actually fell and fell in an unusual direction not consonant with a simple assault. So we put the excavation together with a careful look at the facts (mutual agreements) and a strong dose of human logic. Theater reconstructs the realities of such things and when you see something on the stage it becomes either believable or hokum in the eyes of a theater going public. Let us consider just one example in both the stories of Tenochtitlan's Temple Major and the murder of 25,000 (a moderate entertainment) in Rome's Coliseum. Tenochtitlan was a vast open plaza. The Coliseum held 60,000 people in an oval arena. In comparison Yankee Stadium holds 57,000. Now if you murdered 25,000 people on the field at Yankee stadium how much blood would you have? Or let us imagine a gallon and half of blood per person times 25,000 = 37,500 gallons if half of the people that they claim to have killed per performance were actually killed. This wouldn't be such a big deal except blood is slick and well, I can imagine that but how about 75,000 gallons of blood? Well, I can imagine that in Yankee Stadium but down the steep steps of the Temple Major in Tenochtitlan? Well, I forgot that brag was only 10,000 hearts and that would 15,000 gallons of slick, sticky blood over a period of four days. It was also claimed that the priests never bathed the stuff off because it was sacred. Imagine a butcher never taking a bath. Well, what I'm saying is that there are a lot of stories that come from the past that are not tenable. In fact a hard look at all of the great cannibalism stories by a recent author made him come up with the astounding statement that there wasn't a single recorded incident that would stand the "reasonable doubt" rule in a modern American court room. Reasonable doubt on the screen had better have a terrific sound track to gloss over the inconsistencies. The movies are usually OK because there are no smells to make one doubt the veracity. Anyway, it is the number of years that the Romans continued their entertainment plus the fact that there wasn't only the Coliseum but theaters and amphitheaters throughout the Roman Empire with games like in Mother Rome that makes it clear to me that when it comes to murder, entertainment will outdo prejudice both in the long run and in the numbers. Religion probably does as well with Politics and Economics coming in third. In fact if you examine that genocide site on Religious Tolerance.com you will find some astounding statistics about the Chinese and we are still doing the genocide thing very effectively throughout the world. A read through the Proxmire Law also throws a cold bath on many of the idiots that we have running around proclaiming "Free for dummies." (give me "freedumb.") REH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Commentary From Fr. Matthew Fox....Inneresting... Are you sure more were killed in the coloseium than by Hitler and Stalin combined? I have no idea, but I never heard such a comparison , and I do find it "striking". Thanks for any info you can supply to help clarify this situation.... Cheers! \brad mccormick Ray Evans Harrell wrote: > Harry, > > Just because you can explain it doesn't make it right. I long for the good > old days of the fairness doctrine. There are SOO many reasons for > something being popular. Remember how popular the Coliseum was? There > were more people murdered in the Coliseum than by Hitler and Stalin > combined. And in a time of much lower population figures. I guess you > could argue for any kind of support of conquering murderers as giving the > people what they wanted. That was certainly the reason for the yellow > journalism that murdered Indian men, women and children in the 19th century. > It was more popular to send those Cherokees to Oklahoma, steal their farms, > businesses, censor their newspaper, ban their written language, ban their > religion, and eventually end up sterilizing their women without their > knowledge up until 1978. Because it was popular. > > Harry that argument is immoral and undemocratic and you should be ashamed of > yourself. I expected more. > > REH > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "futurework" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Commentary From Fr. Matthew Fox....Inneresting... > > > >>Ray, >> >>The trouble with Novak (from his remark) is that it sells. The trouble > > that > >>inflicted poor old Phil is that he didn't sell. In fact the reason that >>right-wing people dominate the radio talk shows is that they achieve >>ratings. People like to listen to them. >> >>I should have seen this was happening a long time ago. I listened > > regularly > >>to Michael Jackson, a former Englishman, who held the morning spot on our >>ABC station for about 30 years. >> >>Michael was an American liberal. He knew everyone in politics, everyone >>from the international scene and, most important, everyone in the arts - >>particularly the Hollywood crowd.. He is married to the daughter of Alan > > Ladd. > >>He also came in early and read all the papers before going on the air. >> >>Obviously such an urbane, sophisticated, experienced radio talk show host >>will survive for ever. Yet, he was fired. More people were listening to > > the > >>loud mouths than to Michael. Perhaps more importantly his liberalism >>possibly seemed more dated that his competition. >> >>He was replaced by Dennis Prager - a conservative who also exhibited >>similar traits to Michael. He is a scholar, a writer of a number of books, >>fun to listen to - someone who is as likely to launch into a deep >>discussion of religion as anything else. He held the spot for some time, >>then was knocked out by more active hosts. >> >>Prager now has a national show on what appears to be a conservative > > network > >>with people like Michael Medwin and Hugh Hewitt. He is still often >>interesting, but is maybe a smidgen louder than he used to be. >> >>I know little of Savage. Occasionally, my son gets him on car radio, but I >>haven't really listened to him. I don't recall anything he's said, but he >>seems to have a pushy, intrusive voice. >> >>I wonder if they'll run him on delay so they can bleep out what can't be >>allowed to reach sensitive American ears? Back in the 50's, in the Toronto >>CBC studios their delay method wasn't electronic. They had an endless tape >>running around several posts to provide the delay. One evening the tape >>broke and the host had to decide quickly - replace me with music, or go >>ahead. He decided to go ahead. >> >>I thought at the time that was a compliment. On reflection, it was > > probably > >>that anything I said would be so innocuous so the delay didn't matter. (As >>radio and television were changing back in those days, a lot of programs >>seemed to run on (Rube Goldberg - US) (Heath Robinson - UK) hook-ups. >> >>Towards his demise, Donahue seemed to have some better programming - but >>it apparently didn't help. I didn't often agree with him - but it's a >>shame he's gone. >> >>I don't think that priests are necessarily paedophiles. Rather, I would >>suspect that kids are merely targets of opportunity. They are what's > > available. > >>Would Karen, Selma, Sally, et al, kindly avert their eyes for the next two >>paragraphs - which may be said to be sexually explicit. >> >>My assumption for male sexually is derived from an old saw. It is: >> >>"All a man needs is a hole in the wall." >> >>This may be the reason for priestly misbehavior with children. If adults >>had provided the opportunities, they might be chosen. But, sadly, it is > > the > >>kids with whom the failed priest might have most intimate contact. >> >>The assumption is born out in prisons and other venues without women. The >>prisoners aren't (necessarily) homosexual. They are looking for something >>better than a hole in the wall. The same may be said of some (or many) >>"homosexuals". >> >>If they are afraid of women, or whatever, they may turn to men. This is > > not > >>to deny actual homosexuality. We seem to be a mixture of male and female >>characteristics. That the mixture may veer in either direction seems > > normal. > >>So, the sad priest caught up in this situation may yield to temptation. It >>is wrong, but I'm not convinced it does irretrievable damage to the kid. > > In > >>fact, the bottomless coffers of the Catholic Church may provide temptation >>in reverse. >> >>But, harm to a child rasps our sensibilities and wrinkles our nose in >>disgust. This doesn't make such things easy to think about. >> >>Harry >>---------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Ray wrote: >> >> >>>I don't know much about this but I do know that former Clinton harasser >>>and FBI director Louis Freeh, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia and >>>the Russian spy Hanson were all members of the same Opus Dei chapter in >>>Virginia. Could any of you fill me in on the assertions in this > > article > >>>and who Matthew Fox is? His statement about ideology is one that I >>>resonate with from my own experience. Leadership as authority rather >>>than service. Which brings me to those folks who have captured the >>>Republican Party and are ordering us all to shut up and go to war or be >>>tried for sedition. I heard Robert Novak accuse a long time >>>journalistic colleague yesterday of being a Stalinist on the Capital >>>Gang. She should have called him a follower of Mussolini and a fascist >>>pig but she was too taken aback to reply in kind. >>> >>>REH >>> >>>Subject: Commentary From Fr. Matthew Fox....Inneresting... >>>bb13e9.jpg >>> Welcome: A Response to Priestly Pedophilia Revelations >>>bb1425.jpg >>>I donâ?Tt think the issue in priestly pedophilia is celibacy as such. >>>There are successful celibates in the Western church and in Eastern >>>monastic communities. It is a pity that good priests and monks are being >>>tainted by the abuse of some-and cover-up of hierarchy. It is true that >>>celibacy can serve as a candle of allurement to a moth who has unresolved >>>sexual issues. >>> >>>It appears that a high percentage (one psychologist has told me 100%) of >>>pedophiles were themselves sexually abused as children. When that happens >>>there is often one of two reactions as one reaches puberty: Either an >>>acting out that results in great libertinism or a closing up that >>>registers as a kind of virginal life style. Clearly, a promise of > > celibacy > >>>would appeal to the latter type as it seems to â?osolve the problemâ?? of >>>oneâ?Ts sexual dysfunction lending it high social status as a priest. > > What > >>>is even more clear, however, is that this â?~hiding awayâ?T from oneâ?Ts >>>sexuality only lasts so long and then it bursts out as violence to the >>>next generation. >>> >>>I believe that the deeper scandal being exposed by priestly pedophilia, >>>however, concerns centuries of negative teaching about sexuality by the >>>church and the misuse of celibacy as a political device to keep a clique >>>in authoritarian power. This alone explains the incessant cover ups by >>>Cardinal Law and other hierarchy over the years. >>> >>>â?oA mistake about creation results in a mistake about Godâ?? St. Thomas >>>Aquinas warned seven centuries ago. The church has been involved and is >>>still involved in false teaching about sexuality. Consider how these >>>priests who were acting out their sexual violence on innocent youth were >>>also, in the name of Catholic dogma, preaching in the pulpit and advising >>>in the confessional that 1) it is wrong to practice birth control even at >>>a time when the human population is swamping the rest of creation and 2) >>>it is wrong to use condoms even at a time when people are dying > > world-over > >>>from AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases and 3) that all >> >>>masturbation is a â?oserious sinâ?? and 4) that homosexuality is a >>>â?odisorderâ?? and that all homosexuals must abstain from sex-i.e. be >>>celibate even when these priests, or promises, were not and 5) women do >>>not have the â?~equipmentâ?T to be ordained priests. >>> >>>What all this amounts to is a substitution for the God of healthy >>>sexuality (a God of creation) with man-made rules that enforce an >>>authoritarian and patriarchal system of hierarchy that covers up the >>>serious offenses of its all-male caste members in the name of secrecy and >>>not rocking the boat. Protecting the perpetrator proves to be a higher >>>priority than protecting innocent youth. Everything gets sacrificed to >>>perpetuating the all-male club. (Theologians also get sacrificed to this >>>voracious god of secrecy.) And of course it is verboten to even discuss >>>opening the club up to married clergy for fear of tainting the closed > > system. > >>>Early in the twentieth century a Celtic poet wrote a poem entitled >>>â?oPater Nosterâ?? in which the dominant image was the church as a great >>>sailing vessel that sailed successfully through wild hurricanes and >>>ferocious storms over nineteen centuries but then-in the twentieth >>>century-crashed into sank. The rockâ?Ts name was â?~Sex.â?T >>> >>>The revelations of sexual misconduct are the chicken coming home to roost >>>for the Roman Catholic church. You cannot teach falsely about creation, >>>i.e. sexuality, and rightly about other forms of power. That is why the >>>credibility of this organization and its â?~infallibleâ?T hierarchy will >>>never recover from these revelations. Nor need they. The church is being >>>demythologized. The spiritual revolution that Jesus set loose needs >>>ecclesial structures to play a lesser, not a greater, role in the future >>>when humankind must travel more lightly and must put spirituality ahead > > of > >>>religion and orthopractice ahead of orthodoxies. >>> >>>The late Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago used to speak about the â?oseamless >>>garmentâ?? of Catholic morality. One implication of a â?~seamless >>>garmentâ?T is that when one thread unravels the whole garment does the >>>same. We are currently witnessing the unraveling of the Roman Catholic >>>church particularly as regards its secrecy and male-dominated clubbiness >>>which means of course the repression of the feminine. >>> >>>To understand this clubbiness and male-domination one must grasp the role >>>that Opus Dei plays in the current papacy. Indeed, Cardinal Law is a card >>>carrying member of Opus Dei and its poster child for the North American >>>church. Opus Dei is a secretive organization spawned in Francoâ?Ts > > fascist > >>>Spain and rehabilitated by the current pope who has put it under his wing >>>and appointed bishops and cardinals especially in Latin America and North >>>America from its ranks. Even the popeâ?Ts press secretary is Opus Dei. >>>This organizationâ?Ts commitment to secrecy and male-brotherhood combined >>>with serious banking interests in Europe has set the tone for the secret >>>â?oboys clubâ?? mentality that we now see has been busy covering up >>>priestly pedophilia while it also expels theologians from the priesthood. >>>It also explains the embarrassingly low caliber of appointment of bishops >>>and cardinals during the current Vatican regime. The sole criteria for >>>selection have been right-wing ideology and unquestioning obedience. The >>>German mafia who run the Vatican today are in bed with Opus Dei who run >>>the episcopacy. Those looking to understand the scandal of hierarchical >>>silence about pedophiliac priests might do well to research the role of >>>Opus Dei in this papacy, the most corrupt papacy since the Borgias. >>> >>>Opus Dei has no need for theologians, only ideologues. Their theology is >>>all made up and it centers around unquestioned obedience to the >>>â?~leaderâ?T. This is why the condemnation of theologians and expulsion >> >>>from their religious orders has become such a common practice during this >> >>>papacy serving, as it did, a larger purpose of spreading fear into the >>>ranks of potential theologians. When theologians are expelled or >>>threatened, ideology takes over. It is amazing indeed how the press has >>>treated the Vatican as a Teflon papacy over the years of John Paul II and >>>how uncurious it has been about the role of Opus Dei in the >>>decision-making levels of the Roman Catholic Church and the attitude it >>>has spawned of â?oprotect the institution at all costs.â?? In light of > > the > >>>revelations now flowing from the injured â?ofaithfulâ?? of the church at >>>the grass roots, history will not be so forgiving. Nor, hopefully, will >>>the laity ever again be so naïve or so in denial. >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > >>****************************** >>Harry Pollard >>Henry George School of LA >>Box 655 >>Tujunga CA 91042 >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Tel: (818) 352-4141 >>Fax: (818) 353-2242 >>******************************* >> >> >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > >>--- >>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003 >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > -- Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.... (Matt 5:16) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thes 5:21) <![%THINK;[SGML+APL]]> Brad McCormick, Ed.D. / [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my website ==> http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/ _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
