Keith, Sign me off of your list too. You simply do not have the guts to take the heat.
Bill On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 07:41:34 +0100 Keith Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Ray, > > This is my last contribution to FW until you learn not to sound off > with > empty rhetoric and constant patronisation. You are always > overwhelmed with > the last book you have read -- which is almost always about your own > > ancestors. You are right to be proud about them, but they are only a > very > small part of the world and its past civilisations. What you have > written > below is very interesting but nothing whatever to do with the point > I was > making -- that trade leads to openness to new ideas. > > I was stupid to start writing to FW again, because I like discussing > things > in a balanced way with rational people -- of which FW has a sizeable > number > with whom I feel privileged to exchange ideas. There is no > possibility of > doing so in your case. You are a prima donna, which is fine for > singing but > not for sensible discussion about the matters concerned in this > list. > > KSH > > At 18:52 05/09/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >You say potaytoe and I say potahtoe. You say tomaytoe and I say > Tomahtoe. > >Lets call the whole thing off. > > > >Sorry I don't have time to do this more than cursorily but there is > a good > >book that I've been reading that begins to take over the > intellectual > >territory that has been claimed unjustly. Its called "American > Indian > >Contributions to the World, 15,000 years of Inventions and > Innovations." > >Its by a couple of wild Lakota scholars who have scoured the > literature by > >the name of Emory Dean Keoke and Kay Marie Porterfield. > Checkmark books. > >Amongst other things it has several pages of comparisons between > the > >Iroquois "Great Law" and the American Constitution and > descriptions of > >native roots of 19th century European political theories borrowed > from us. > >Perhaps this cultural ill fit may have something to do with why > they don't > >work there, if your observations are correct. I can't tolerate > wheat > >glutin or lactose either and the doctors tell me the roots are in > my blood. > >Could be that cultural institutions don't travel as easily as > ideas. > > > >Keoke and Porterfield have an Encyclopedic discussion of such > things as > >Trade, Asphalt, Asepsis, and all of the games that we now do > including > >football, basketball, women's football (remarkably like soccer > which all of > >the old worlds banned women from playing until recently). > Indians > >invented the hollow rubber balls and brought rubber to the world. > They > >had universal gender equality and much of current psycho-analytic > work has > >its roots in Native American dream techniques and free association. > The > >Gestalt psychologists studied with native practitioners in the > 1950s and > >incorporated much of the group techniques into T groups and therapy > groups > >that have found there way into modern business management as well. > And > >then there was the syringe used for such things as enemas and it > almost > >seems like we must have invented bathing since there was so little > of it > >done in Europe until quite recently. (joke) While the Europeans > didn't > >bother to boil the water to bathe wounds until the last couple of > centuries > >pre-Columbians were bathing wounds with sterile water and using > Balsam as an > >antiseptic I realize Guy de Chauliac proposed such aseptic > practices in > >1300 but the Europeans couldn't see the sense of it until Joseph > Lister > >"proved" it by writing it down. (not a joke) > > > >There were co-inventions of various other devices used by the > Sumerians > >about the same time such as the use for certain petroleum products. > Its an > >amazing book. Trade? We had it from Tierra del Fuego to the > Arctic but > >no draft animals so there was no reason to tear up the ground with > wheels. > >And the lists of foods that we traded? 75% of the staple food > stuffs, all > >listed, freeze dried and moved over great distances as well as the > most > >productive food plant in the world, the sweet potato. > > > >Freedom? its built into the religion from the base up as a part of > empathy > >for the various ceremonials of reconciliation. Trade followed. > > > > What did those European folks trade over the silk road? We > traded long > >fiber cotton and all kinds of exotic paints, rubber products, > flint tools, > >medicines, cocoa and other foods like corn, beans squash, peanuts > etc. Our > >medicines are a cornucopia including primitive surgeries that > worked like > >"drains" for sutured wounds, etc. > > > >The problem has always been the kind of "ignorance of the other > cultures" > >that America has shown in Iraq. American Europeans seem to > assume if they > >don't know about it then it doesn't exist, or if a European can > take a > >vacation there and spend a few weeks then, like the > anthropologists, they > >become authorities. Well, I've spent many years doing European > art and > >culture and I know ours as well. You can't do it in a week, a > month or a > >year. Like Bel Canto voice writings, if you "know" then books > can be > >useful but if you don't know then they are not enough to "know" > what the > >other side is doing. Like trying to learn how to sing from a > book. Not > >possible. You need holistic images to imitate. Culture and the > roots of > >conflicts are the same. You have to experience it if you are to > know. > >There are problems, (as I have said endlessly), with writing and > with book > >learned history. > > > >Today we are beginning to fill in the holes on our own as we get > the money > >to resist the power play from the dominant society. All of this > as a > >result of having casino wealth. Wealth is not freedom in that > sense but > >power and that gives us the power to resist the educational and > economic > >slavery of those who would keep us enslaved. The Pequot's have > built a > >world class museum next to their casino for the education of the > children. > > > > The internet is amazing and native scholars are beginning once > more to > >claim our heritage that was taken and claimed as "inventions" for > >Imperialists. Sort of like making European names the only > official names > >for the mountains of the world. We're taking that back too. > Maybe that > >tendency to claim common knowledge as official only when some > scientist has > >written about it and stuck his name on it could have been a part of > the root > >cause of such non-European anger amongst folks like Islam? Who > was Al > >Jabar? > > > >I guess I couldn't "call the whole thing off." Well this is the > last I > >will write on this thread. If you want you can read the book, its > links > >and references including the roots of what we call "liberal > democratic > >theory." It seems that they document what I have been saying > about the > >roots which go back thousands of years in this place. And what > they say > >is short because it is one volume but it opens up old roots and > puts down > >new ones and flowers mightily. > > > >REH > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 3:23 PM > >Subject: Re: [Futurework] Tragedy in Iran, too > > > > > > > At 12:51 05/09/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > >I think the only problem you have is to assume that trade > creates > eedom. > > > > > > I don't have a problem. I gave some historical evidence that > when Islam > >was > > > an active trading network in the Mediterranea it was a liberal > and > > > scholarly regime. > > > > > > >I would respectfully suggest that is a typical western mistake. > The > > > >reverse is true. Prosperity didn't create freedom for > pre-Columbian > > > >America but prosperity flowed from the necessity for empathy > and respect > >and > > > >freedom was the result of both. Trade naturally followed. I > don't > >think > > > >you can make the case anywhere today that trade implies freedom > in fact > >the > > > >reverse is true in many cases where humans are enslaved to > create > >efficient > > > >trade. Work doesn't make free. Neither does trade. > > > > > > Would you please give some relevant historical evidence as I've > done, and > > > then I might be able to understand you. > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > > > <www.evolutionary-economics.org> > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England, > <www.evolutionary-economics.org> > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
