Harry, You are confusing convention with nature. That has been the argument about economics, the brain, etc. But I can list several examples of bisexuality in nature both in primates and in others like fish. The sea bass is both. They do a dance together then both lay eggs and both fertilize them. Nature is incredibly diverse. The only thing we seem to share in common is pleasure. Pleasure is natural and yet society often does everything to stop it and to train it out of the children. The Church has been the most unnatural on this account through the centuries.
So this heterosexual would plead for a more natural humanity that is not so confining and that accepts differences wherever they are found as long as they respect the freedom of others. REH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Ray Evans Harrell'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'futurework'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:37 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] To return to an old subject with a new history. > Ray, > > Thanks for the post. It was interesting. > > Homosexuality is not "normal". > > Sex in the human being is intimately connected with having > children, securing the mother during pregnancy, caring for > defenseless children until they can take care of themselves. > > That is "normal". > > Homosexuals are not part of this, though they can secure and > defend if they wish, though this true of heterosexuals as well. > However, the production of a family along with its nurture is a > hetero task. > > The Catholic Church, along with other religions in the past, > support families and even large families, which understandably > puts homosexuality outside the Pale. > > Marriage is part of the "production and nurture". It seems to me > that marriage isn't necessary if children aren't in the picture. > So marriage isn't in the homo picture either. > > However, they so desperately want to be part of normality, they > struggle to wear the trappings. As I've said, 'Sad' would be a > better name than "Gay". > > I also suspect that homos can be divided into two groups. There > are those whose genes have left them between man and woman and > are stuck with it. This may produce good or bad results. I think > that maybe you see some of the good results in your profession. > > There are probably others who choose homo. Women are tough > creatures and are likely to frighten males. They find greater > acceptance with other men. > > I used the crude expression that sums up the male in a previous > post. You'll recall I said "all a man needs is a hole in the > wall". I can't recall where I got it, but it sums up a real > situation that leads to "homosexuality" in prisons and similar > aberrations. The prisoners are not homos - even though they > practice homosexuality. They look for a convenient "hole in the > wall". > > "Pederasty" and "slavery" are the same thing - the dominance of > one person over another. How better to inflate one's ego than by > making another submit to sodomy? > > Yet, neither is (necessarily) a homo. It was now a matter of > showing who was the master. > > Harry > > > ******************************************** > Henry George School of Social Science > of Los Angeles > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 > Tel: 818 352-4141 -- Fax: 818 353-2242 > http://haledward.home.comcast.net > ******************************************** > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray > Evans Harrell > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:29 PM > To: futurework > Subject: [Futurework] To return to an old subject with a new > history. > > From the NYTimes. > > REH > > > December 13, 2003 > SHELF LIFE > Annals of Homosexuality: From Greek to Grim to Gay > By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN > > In Tony Kushner's "Angels in America," which concludes tomorrow > night on > HBO, homosexuality is associated with religious martyrdom; > salvation is > found in the embrace of sexual identity. In American courts, > homosexuality > is being associated with bourgeois family life; salvation is > being sought in > social routine. > And in Louis Crompton's sober, searching and somber new history, > "Homosexuality and Civilization," homosexuality is associated > with the inner > workings of civilization itself. The book provides the background > to the > resentments and passions that erupt in Mr. Kushner's play and > haunt debates > about gay marriage, and it, too, offers a promise of salvation. > It begins in the gladness of early Greece, where homosexuality > had an > "honored place" for more than a millennium and concludes with the > madness of > 19th-century Europe. In between is what Mr. Crompton calls a > "kaleidoscope > of horrors" lasting more than 1,500 years. In the 13th century, a > French law > stated: "Whoever is proved to be a sodomite shall lose his > testicles. And if > he does it a second time, he shall lose his member. And if he > does it a > third time, he shall be burned." Beginning in 1730 in the > Netherlands, 250 > trials of "sodomites" took place, followed by at least 75 > executions. > Between 1806 and 1835, 60 homosexuals were hanged in England. > Mr. Crompton, an emeritus professor of English at the University > of Nebraska > and the author of "Byron and Greek Love," a much-praised study of > Byron's > sexuality, was one of the first American professors some 30 years > ago to > teach the history of homosexuality, a project that was at the > time both > daring and inherently polemical. > But this is a restrained, careful, clear book of scholarly > exposition; it is > no martyrology. It also hopes to be a post-mortem. Mr. Crompton > ends the > book "at the moment when executions finally cease in Europe," > promising both > the fading of homosexuality's stigma and the slow healing of its > stigmata. > But what led to this "kaleidoscope of horrors"? In ancient > Greece, > homosexuality was philosophically praised and institutionally > sanctioned, > associated with virtues of courage and mentorship. In ancient > Rome, it was > primarily cultivated in relationships between masters and slaves, > but > homosexual behavior was common to Pompey, Caesar, Mark Antony and > Octavius. > "Of the first 15 emperors," Gibbon pointed out, "Claudius was the > only one > whose taste in love was entirely correct." > Why did such indulgence, tolerance and even sanction disappear? > Mr. Crompton > offers a very different interpretation from the influential > theory outlined > by the French philosopher Michel Foucault. In Mr. Crompton's > view, the > concept of homosexuality was not something created in > 19th-century Europe > when it was first considered a medical condition, nor was it, > despite > cultural variations, so drastically different in other times and > places. > Mr. Crompton argues that Christianity created the most radical > change in > attitudes toward homosexuality. "The debt owed by civilization to > Christianity is enormous," he writes; but so, he believes, have > been > Christianity's sins. In Japan, for example, before the > mid-19th-century > Western influence, homosexuality was "an honored way of life > among the > country's religious and military leaders so that its acceptance > paralleled, > and in some respects even surpassed, ancient Athens." It was > common among > Buddhist sages, part of samurai culture and an accepted aspect of > the Kabuki > theater world. > Christianity attacked such customs when it gained access, Mr. > Crompton > argues, but its assault began in the West as early as the 4th > century (not > the 12th century, he says, as the historian John Boswell > believed). > Mr. Crompton traces Christian hostility to Leviticus, which may > have been > written around 550 B.C., at the very time that homoerotic poetry > was > thriving in Greece. It mandated death for homosexual acts. Mr. > Crompton > suggests that this law was an attempt to differentiate the Jews > from > Mediterranean cults in which transvestite priests, eunuchs and > sexual > activity played a central role in ritual and worship. > As filtered through the severity of the writings of the Apostle > Paul, > though, that condemnation became central to Christianity, > strictly > distinguishing it from Roman and pagan cultures. In Mr. > Crompton's view, it > also ended up influencing the later criminal codes of France, > Spain, > England, the Holy Roman Empire, the Italian states and > Scandinavia. > Judging from this history, though, prohibition seems to have been > unable to > quash the practice in any social class; in the European > aristocracy, at any > rate, it flourished. In 1610, when Louis XIII came to the French > throne, Mr. > Crompton notes, "one `sodomite,' James I, ruled England, > Scotland, and > Ireland; another, Rudolph II, presided over the Holy Roman > Empire; and > France had its second homosexual king within a generation." > The relationship between homosexuality and political liberty is > also marked > by peculiarities. Mr. Crompton points out that by the > Enlightenment, in > Roman Catholic countries anticlerical feeling swept ancient > antisodomy laws > away, along with the church's authority. But countries already > affected by > the Reformation had no need to rebel; their antisodomy > legislation remained > intact. So by the 19th century, homosexuality was tolerated far > more in > countries like France, Spain and Italy than in England, the > Netherlands or > the United States. > What, then, does contemporary salvation consist of? For Mr. > Crompton, it is > heralded by figures like Jeremy Bentham, who argued for reform of > antisodomy > laws in the late 18th century. But history, while it provides > context for > contemporary debates, offers no clear guidance. Homosexuality in > ancient > Greece and Rome, for example, involved pederasty, and in Rome, > slavery. > Liberal democracy has recognized that neither is compatible with > human > autonomy; both take advantage of those unable to exercise their > will and > reason fully. So whatever evolves in coming years will not be > based on past > models but on ones yet to evolve, models in which martyrdom, at > the very > least, should become superfluous. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.552 / Virus Database: 344 - Release Date: 12/15/2003 > > > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
