Title: Max reply
[My apologies: this message went out on Friday  but was held by the moderator because it exceeded the word limit. Sorry for the delay.]

Stephen,

Thanks for your interesting and provocative questions. Perhaps there is a postmodernist membership card, but then it's probably a text, too, so that just reproduces the problem.

One of my best memories of the Sepphoris dig is of watching you clean that coin--I remember being thoroughly amazed.

Let me say first off that you caught me in one big inconsistency: I did indeed draw conclusions in this lecture that are based on several unstated assumptions. This is not necessarily a problem, as such, but it does indeed shape the sort of conclusions I can draw from the evidence as I've constructed it.

Now, on the subject of the "late date" of MMT. You did engage in a "strong misreading" (but as far as I can tell, reader-response people consider this a good thing!) of what I said when you introduced the possibility:

But, say, if Yannai was the
wicked priest (the earliest MMT mss are estimated likely from his lifetime)
and if Judah the Essene teacher of righteousness sent him a letter quite close
in wording to extant MMT copies (parts B and C), even if the 6 or 7 (if the
7th is in cryptic text as Pfann proposed) extant copies are not that ms, MMT
could, at least conceivably, have been a letter.

Yes! This is exactly right, and I completely agree. IF Yannai was the WP and Judah was the T of R, then this scenario is entirely possible. But my claim wasn't just that the manuscripts of MMT were late, but that the composition of MMT was late. And in claiming that the composition of MMT was late (here's where my historical assumptions become relevant), I was also assuming that MMT would date from a time after the period of the T of R's leadership. So, yes, if we assume a later date for the Teacher, the whole rest of the narrative can fall into place just as you've presented it.

I'm not saying I agree with you (or even that I don't), but just that you're right in noting (as I tried to point out in the lecture) that our assumptions of what counts as evidence make a huge difference to the sort of narrative we can tell.

And a text can be two things at the same time, can't it?

I think I did try to say this, or at least I tried to in the various longer versions of this discussion (shameless plug: see RevQ 20 [2001] 3-22, and Reading for History, ch. 2). It is absolutely the case that a text that starts off one way can end up another. The Pauline epistles give us lots to work with on precisely that question.

Is the "*cannot*" above shading toward totalizing or being overdrawn? In other
words, I looked for conclusions, and one of the most emphatically-stated ones
I found I found not at the moment persuasive.

I think what I was getting at here was that if you say that MMT was written after the Teacher was gathered to his fathers, then it really can't have been written by the Teacher. The statement was conclusive because I thought it was a gimme. But it was based on an unstated historical assumption that you are right to highlight. Different assumptions? Possibly different conclusions.
Question 2. After working methodologically, what then, in brief, are the main,
even if provisional, conclusions about D and MMT in history? What can we or
you reliably say?

OK, here I'm going to be completely annoying and unsatisfying, but at least consistent with my earlier conclusions: I really do think that we can generate a number of different, parallel, and sometimes contradictory historical accounts based on how we select our evidence and what we do with it. Some will be more convincing than others, but the conclusiveness won't come from any kind of proof--it will come from the belief that this use of evidence is the most responsible.

There are places where I think the evidence is overwhelmingly clear (e.g., that we're talking about a thoroughly sectarian group in the sociological sense: lots of threats of schism, lots of insider-language, lots of nasty rhetoric towards outsiders), and where I think this has an impact on the way we do history (don't trust these people to be speaking literally, but recognize that they sometimes might be, even so). Other assumptions I have about these texts: that they reflect several generations of real sectarians (although it's worth walking through other models to see where it gets us), that they reflect people who were very concerned with proper religious practice and were steeped in scripture, and that the people of the scrolls may not have been nearly as important in their world as their texts make us think they were.

In other cases, I think the evidence is overwhelmingly provocative (e.g. that the classical descriptions of the Essenes bounce up against some of the scrolls evidence in important ways), but that this provocation needs to be handled carefully (so, OK, who got what right, and who got what wrong in their descriptions, and how did the actual movements change over time?). Priesthood is another example of this ("Zadokite" priests are rhetorically central in complicated ways, and in different ways in different texts. What's the relationship to real Zadokites, and also to non-Zadokite priests and non-priests?).

Other evidence is a real problem or is used in problematic ways. Do I think the scrolls come from a Christian milieu? No. Why? Because I think the evidence doesn't warrant it. But do I think such theories can be interesting or useful? Possibly, and especially when they suggest combinations of evidence that we hadn't thought of before (and even when we don't agree on conclusions, we can often agree that new combinations of evidence are useful).

As much as I respect the desire to nail the story down more closely, and as much as I recognize that some such historical narratives can actually be accurate (but how can we say which one is? and how do we confirm that claim? especially if we can't trust the "best" narratives to be anything other than reproductions of exactly what the sectarians wanted to believe was true?), I'm not ready to side with one or another.

Sorry for this overly long post, and thanks for your interesting and helpful questions,

Max


Reply via email to