Best regards
Thomas Koch
www.tke.dk
________________________________
Fra: [email protected] p? vegne af Tom Miles
Sendt: on 29-12-2010 23:15
Til: [email protected]; 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Emne: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_
A thumbnail sketch of developments in small scale CHP including
gasification, and the development of gasifiers for syngas production
can be seen in this year's meetings and workshops of the IEA Task 33
on Biomass Gasification and IEA Task 32 on Biomass Combustion and Cofiring.
They held a joint workshop in October 7,2010 in Copenhagen on
"State-of-the-art technologies for small biomass co generation".
Individual presentations can be seen at:
http://www.ieabcc.nl/meetings/task32_Copenhagen/index.html
The last meeting of the IEA Task 33 on Biomass Gasification was held
June 1-3, 2010 in Helsinki. Minutes of that meeting can be found at:
http://media.godashboard.com//gti/IEA_Helsinki_Minutes_06-2010.pdf
<http://media.godashboard.com/gti/IEA_Helsinki_Minutes_06-2010.pdf>
This meeting lists activities in the principal countries that are
developing gasifiers for syngas and producer gas applications.
Highlights from other countries that did not present at the 2010
meeting can be found at:
http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/app/xn/xd.aspx?it=enweb&xd=iea/taskminutes.xml
<http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/app/xn/xd.aspx?it=enweb&xd=iea/taskminutes.xml>
Additional presentations for research and commercial systems can be
found in the Programme of "Gasification 2010," the International
Seminar on Gasification held 28-29 October, in Gothenburg, Sweden
http://www.sgc.se/gasification2010/programme.asp
Happy Holidays
Tom Miles
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Ludlow
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:37 PM
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_
Hmmm,
Ben a lot of "gas" generated on this topic but not much useable
energy! Chicken Little would feel right at home! I doubt that many
who buy the GEK expect to go into methanol production. Do I smell
just a little envy?
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Pannirselvam P.V
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:22 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Cc: m...@ry; Rajesh sk
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_
Tom ,Jim,Toby
We need happy end to the hot debate on syngas 2010
Many list member can agree with me that public or private
retrack statements is a correct peaceful end as proposed by
Jim as more damage was being done to him and GEK, I can prove
that this is not the request of crew of Jim as some one put here
, but independent observer .Every member here has their
voice heard , independent they are from poor country or rich
country , independent of person like me with Phd , working with
university or an technical person with elementary school.The new
social network make this possible via our lists with equal rights
.some are proved expert of the start of art as much as Jim or
more , but if one do not explained well here , the
experience alone can not make one for other to follow as crew.
We all here can not blindly follow with hero workship of few
people or expert or so called imaginary Jim crew, even though he
has world wide network, disciples.wiki,fotoblog etc,There is no
need for him to use the power of
his gasification crew against few misunderstanding.
If he really use his syngas based
hydrogen globalizeded distributed network power as some one
supect here , our list can be innudated with emailsand .our list
email system could have exploded wiith this syngas based
hydrogen explosives emails and bda demage done to GEK and JIM
could have disappeared
But , as Jim travel and know the biodiversity , really respect
all even one who misunderstand too open minded , not too much
commercial business minded , but there is always limit to this .
Thus I wish especial new near to Jim and Toby , making the debate
live and the good side of this very hot debate
Jim even though , too much demaged his true image and good
motivation , has not asked public apology , but very educated and
polite to ask only publick retrack and I hopethat he accept too
private retrack ,latter inform about the same
Making error is human , I hope the persons misunderstood
They can fell and be super human , if they can if not publick
retrack openly or at least send private email retrack.
I wish Jim accept this private re-track and we will end this big
mis understanding in our very big lists
As really what we need for this list in the new year is peace ,
progress, unity in diversity , respect for all list members ,
including All the energy experts , academics like me , farmers ,
Small Energy enterprise owners .Our unity in diversity make our
list very especial and diferent as we need all, the more divesity
much better for the sustainable growth of our list.
Yours truely
Dr.Panniselvam
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:52 PM, jim mason <[email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Toby Seiler <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Jim was right, I'm working on a machine that is intended to some
degree to integrate principles of making synthesis gas, so I have a
vested interest in his use of terminology used in marketing his
product that, I believe, contributes to a public
misunderstanding. I've asked Jim nice many times in the past to
consider the differences that Doug, Bill Klein, Greg and many other
professionals on this list have explained to Jim and myself years ago.
>
well toby, there you go again. and now you've also ignored the raw
data, in addition to the previous detailed description and logical
argument. again, the comedy here is I AM NOT USING THE TERM SYNGAS TO
DESCRIBE OR MARKET THE GEK.
i posted the raw data relating to the use of the syngas term on the
gek site. you glossed over it without impact on your claims. here it
is again below. i would like for you to respond to this data. and
hopefully retract your statement that i am using this term to market
the GEK currently, along with the assertion that i am actively trying
to mislead about the nitrogen content in the gek gas (of which there
is plenty).
that represents the current state of affairs and representation.
as for future states of affairs and representations, the more i look
into the history of this term, its use internationally, and general
movement in use academically, govt, commercially and popularly, i
think i am going to start using it actively. the transition is
actually much further along than i realized when i was just waving
hands around here about it being a better term.
but again, the current representation of the gek on our site does not
use the term actively. please respond to the data i have presented.
show some nuance. if we cannot respond reasonably to data clearly
presented, description and argument clearly constructed, how are we
every going to make meaningful progress on the problem of biomass
thermal conversion? vocabulary might be the least of our problems
here . . .
here's the gek site term use inventory. you may have to click "show
hidden" to see it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
below is an inventory of actual usage of the terms in
question on the gek site. i've done this for the 8 most visited pages
on the site, in order. i've then pulled out a much lower visited
page, but the one where i thought my "sins" would be the most
pronounced. this is the one where the details of gasification are
explained. it is the 14th most visited page.
as you will see, there is no sentence of the type "the GEK makes
syngas". in actuality, the "syngas" term is barely even used. in the
top 8 pages, only 3 occurrances, 1 to note that "syngas" is one of
many terms used for the gas, and 2 in passing while talking about
mixing systems. in contrast, there are 82 occurrances of the term
"gasifier", 28 occurrances of the term "gasification", 9 for "wood
gas", 0 for "producer gas", 0 for "suction gas", 0 for "synthesis
gas". i'll even eliminate the two passing uses of the term while
discussing mixing if that helps quell this nonsensical lexical
tempest.
more to your point, the selling pages have exactly 0 declarations that
"syngas" is the gas being made by the GEK. that's right- zero. the
term is in not used anywhere to make a claim about the type of gas the
gek makes, nor to promote its sale. not sure if this changes
anything, but that's the data. as a man of science, i trust you will
recalibrate your conclusions in relation to the real data.
here's the detail inventory. it is done over the permanent content on
each page. not rss feeds in the left column from elsewhere, which
change constantly and not in my control (though i could find zero
occurances of the "syngas" term there either).
1. GEK gasifier home page: http://www.gekgasifier.com
<http://www.gekgasifier.com/>
gasifier (9), gasification (4), syngas (1), wood gas (0), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
the "offending" syngas sentence at the bottom of the page:
"The system automatically adjusts syngas/air mixture via a wide band
Bosch oxygen sensor, shakes the grate when needed, and removes ash via
a mechanical auger.")
2. How to make the GEK page: http://www.gekgasifier.com/wood-gasifier-plans/
gasifier (8), gasification (3), syngas (0), wood gas (1), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
3. Power Pallet info and buy page:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/gasifier-genset-skids/
gasifier (19), gasification (3), syngas (2), wood gas (2), producer
gas (0), synthesis gas (0)
the two 2 syngas references are again in the context of
talking about fuel/air mixing
4. Store front: http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/
gasifier (8), gasification (3), syngas (0), wood gas (1), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
5. Wiki page with detail plans and CAD drawings on making and using
the GEK:
http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/6123754/How-to-Build-and-Run-the-GEK-Gasifier
gasifier (8), gasification (3), syngas (0), wood gas (2), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
6. BEK biochar info page:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/reactor-options/pyrolysis-biochar/
gasifier (5), gasification (2), syngas (0), wood gas (2), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
7. Gasification Basics, intro to the tech:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-basics/
gasifier (8), gasification (6), syngas (0), wood gas (0), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
the closest i get to sin here is:
"Gasification is the use of heat to tranform solid biomass, or other
carbonaceous solids, into a synthetic "natural gas like" flammable
fuel.")
8. Gasifier kits info and buy page:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/gasifier-systems-and-kits/
gasifier (17), gasification (4), syngas (0), wood gas (1), producer
gas (0), synthesis gas (0)
Here's where i thought my biggest "sins" would be. This is the page
with the detailed explanation of how gasification works:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-basics/how-it-works/
gasifier (8), gasification (18), syngas (2), wood gas (2), producer
gas (1), synthesis gas (0), suction gas (1)
there are 2 sentences with syngas. the "offending sentences:
"The gas produced by this method goes by a variety of names: "wood
gas", "syngas", "producer gas", "suction gas", etc."
"This is why an engine run on syngas can have such clean emissions."
those appear to be the facts from my neck of the woods. others are
invited to review the above pages and point out where they think
things are otherwise or should be changed. i'll happily change them,
as i don't really have a horse in this race.
percentage nitrogen density isn't really the relevant racetrack to
work out the real issues with this tech.
jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Gasification Administrator
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Mason
Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com <http://www.whatiamupto.com/>
Current Projects:
- Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK):
http://www.gekgasifier.com <http://www.gekgasifier.com/>
- Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race:
www.escapefromberkeley.com <http://www.escapefromberkeley.com/>
- ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
- Shipyard Announce list:
http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
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************************************************
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ASSOCIATE . PROF.
Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
Computer aided Cost engineering
DEQ - Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica
CT - Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova - Natal/RN
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