Recent two piston ecomotors ?are under > fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking > well proven can make possible as practical ?small energy genertion with low > investments HI Can I study this more indepth The two piston ecomoters?? > Thanks guys Wayne
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:04 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Send Gasification mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Gasification digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. effect of steam on tar and soot production during pyrolysis? > (jim mason) > 2. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production during > pyrolysis? (Greg Manning) > 3. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production during > pyrolysis? (Pannirselvam P.V) > 4. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production during > pyrolysis? (Greg Manning) > 5. Sheet metal design and prototyping (Thomas Reed) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:05:15 -0700 > From: jim mason <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production > during pyrolysis? > Message-ID: > <CAB5Uy2z8D2YEkXQdQZ=q9us9gennizyz4_4uj2_-m8as-hi...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less > issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question. > > does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts > of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? my hunch is that > increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double > carbon bonded refractory tars. we know we can do this by reducing > pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help > with this? > > the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in > combustion environments where there is high steam. steam apparently > interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. thus to the degree > we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot > reduction. > > but what about during pyrolysis? does it reduce PAH production? do > it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? in general, > are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things > meaningfully easier to deal with downstream? > > i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during > pyrolysis. i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue > improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage. > > j > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jim Mason > Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com > Current Projects: > ?? - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com > ?? - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: www.escapefromberkeley.com > ?? - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs > ?? - Shipyard Announce list: > http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:46:17 -0500 > From: Greg Manning <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production > during pyrolysis? > Message-ID: > <cah4esnqzwf0prcsiac8rf75bafsygqacc6dcsn9krsosxmz...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Greetings List. > > Jim, > > There are many ways to improve all "sections" (used loosely) within a > downdraft gasifier, however IMO, steam in biomass is NOT one of them, > Coal on the otherhand is the opposite. > > Attempting to control the reaction temperature should only be done > within the design of the gasifier, for it's intended feedstock, any > other methods, simply put..... fail. > > Design is paramount, get it right in the first place (aliken to the > foundation of a house) once the design is right, everything else runs > correct (level plumb and true). > > Greg Manning > > > > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:05 PM, jim mason <[email protected]> wrote: >> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less > > <snip> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 00:35:08 -0300 > From: "Pannirselvam P.V" <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Cc: Mark Nickelo Blanco <[email protected]>, Rajesh sk > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production > during pyrolysis? > Message-ID: > <cadw81mdukx93zg9ylf88ydrdpdjdfsb9b0jdd05u0bkwqzn...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Dear Jim > > Both the pyrolyis and steam gasification depends mostly on the > temperture > the temperture higher than 1000 C , can accelerate more the water gas > shift reaction thus into more hydrogen and co2 , and alos the co2 > decomposition leading to more C0 ,shifting the equilibrium leading to the > gas with less co2 . Thus steam reforming into hydogen rich syn gas is > favoured along with methan formation, less soot , tar production needing > less , air , thus less n2 in the the gas output > > in this case of high temperture , pyrolyis is not limiting factor , but > steam reforming is critical. > > Low temperature pyrolysis can lead to tar, char fines PAH, thus optium , > not only the steam ,but also the the biomass:Air :steam are important > parameters. > > One of our research group project collaborator Dr.Rajessh has done , > not experimental study , but modeling simulation and optimization of these > varibables as the Phd thesis .His email .is [email protected] also has > more than international publications , he is presenetly working Pos doctrate > research regarding several vital question you have made here . > > Even for us who make model , the role of steam in pyrolysis is not very > clear.The steam , it products , c02 , can bring down very rapidly the > pyrolysis temperature , then there is problem of maintain steady > temperatures . > > In this respect , the two satge Denmak Viking gasifier has two stges > :pyrolysis , steam gasification pliot plant are very well demonstrated , > in which the engine exhaust are used to maintain the tempertaure in > pyrlolysis as in GEK , the hot air and steam are recoverd from gasifier. > Surley there are experimental published work is available > http://www.bgg.mek.dtu.dk/Publications.aspxot > > Not only steam air ratio, but how this can be used are important points , > realy we do not have answer. > > if you wish to use steam in pyrolysis , this need to be the superheated one > , as superheated steam is well proved to be good for combustion , this can > help cracking Carbon carbon bonds, tars etc. > > Experimental results are lacking but you can serach several patents,where > you can surely find the correct answer. > > Opensource google , several sites make possible very quick search abou the > same > > > GeK gasifier design is ok , there is an good scope to do operacional > research to optimize , minimize fuel consumption , make goodquality gas , > improve overall energy efficienmcy.Recent two piston ecomotors are under > fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking > well proven can make possible as practical small energy genertion with low > investments > > As you have open mind and open source ecobusiness model , making > money from biomass waste can be reality , an proven very soon , yet now > is an dream for many not an economicaly viable business, but technicaly > feasible as your well made GEK gasifier working demonstrated > > Wish you all the sucess and thank you for your open minded sharing > information of technical information with our list, I am happy to see You > as an example and good model of other business venture bioenergy making > private company to share not only the problems , but also share several > important technical solution with open mind along with this list members, > eventhough top secret, stat of art technology one can keep awy from the > list > > Welcome you to bring here the problems and the real isseu and I am sure > good way will be shown by several experts > > Yours truely > Pannirselvam P.V > > > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:05 PM, jim mason <[email protected]> wrote: > >> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less >> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question. >> >> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts >> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? my hunch is that >> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double >> carbon bonded refractory tars. we know we can do this by reducing >> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help >> with this? >> >> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in >> combustion environments where there is high steam. steam apparently >> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. thus to the degree >> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot >> reduction. >> >> but what about during pyrolysis? does it reduce PAH production? do >> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? in general, >> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things >> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream? >> >> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during >> pyrolysis. i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue >> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage. >> >> j >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Jim Mason >> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com >> Current Projects: >> - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com >> - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: >> www.escapefromberkeley.com >> - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs >> - Shipyard Announce list: >> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gasification mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: >> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ >> > > > > -- > ************************************************ > P.V.PANNIRSELVAM > ASSOCIATE . PROF. > Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator > Computer aided Cost engineering > > DEQ ? Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica > CT ? Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ? Natal/RN > Campus Universit?rio. CEP: 59.072-970 > North East,Brazil > ******************************************* > https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/ > and > http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ > > > Fone ;Office > 84 3215-3769 , Ramal 210 > Home : 84 3217-1557 > > Mobile :558488145083 > > Email: > [email protected] > [email protected] > [email protected] > [email protected] > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110808/f79e905c/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 05:16:01 -0500 > From: Greg Manning <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production > during pyrolysis? > Message-ID: > <CAH4eSNrVNreHa+y6sSVqNVtiyFH0g=spwkoid9u0tja9suw...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Greetings List, Jim, Pannirselvam. > > I now re-read your initial post, and wonder quoting you.. > > Quote: "we know we can do this by reducing >>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help >>> with this?" < End Quote: > > Reducing Pyrolysis Temperature ????? this is exactly where tars and > PAH's are created in the first place. > > Sorry Jim, I'll back out of this conversation now, as we are in two > different worlds as to what makes a gasifier work correctly. > > Greg Manning > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Pannirselvam P.V <[email protected]> wrote: >> ?Dear Jim >> ? ?Both the pyrolyis and steam gasification ?depends mostly ?on the >> temperture >> the ?temperture higher than ?1000 C , can ? accelerate ?more the ?water gas >> ?shift reaction thus ?into more ? hydrogen and co2 , and alos the ?co2 >> ?decomposition ?leading to more C0 ,shifting ?the equilibrium leading to the >> gas with ?less co2 . Thus ?steam reforming into hydogen rich syn gas is >> favoured along with methan formation, less soot , tar production needing >> less , air , thus less n2 in the the gas output >> ? in this case of high temperture , pyrolyis is not limiting factor , but >> steam reforming ?is critical. >> Low ?temperature ?pyrolysis can lead to tar, char fines PAH, thus optium , >> not only the steam ,but also the the biomass:Air :steam ?are important >> parameters. >> ? One of our ?research group ?project collaborator ?Dr.Rajessh ?has done , >> not experimental ?study , but modeling simulation and optimization of ?these >> varibables as ?the Phd thesis .His email .is [email protected] also has >> more than international publications , he is presenetly working Pos doctrate >> research ?regarding several ?vital question you have ?made here . >> ? Even for us ?who make model ?, the role of steam in pyrolysis is not ?very >> clear.The steam , it products , c02 ?, can bring down very ?rapidly the >> pyrolysis temperature , then there is problem of maintain steady >> temperatures . >> ? ? In this respect , the two satge ?Denmak ?Viking ?gasifier ?has two stges >> :pyrolysis , steam gasification pliot plant are ?very ?well demonstrated ?, >> in which the engine exhaust are used to maintain the tempertaure ?in >> pyrlolysis as in GEK , the hot air and steam are recoverd from gasifier. >> Surley there are ?experimental ?published work ?is available >> http://www.bgg.mek.dtu.dk/Publications.aspxot >> Not only steam air ?ratio, but ?how ?this can be used are important points , >> realy ?we do not have ?answer. >> if you wish to use ?steam in pyrolysis , this need to be the superheated one >> , as superheated ?steam is well proved to be ?good for combustion , this can >> help cracking ?Carbon carbon bonds, tars etc. >> Experimental results ?are lacking but you can serach several patents,where >> you ?can surely find the correct answer. >> Opensource google , several sites make possible very quick search ?abou the >> same >> >> ? GeK gasifier design is ok , there is an good scope to do operacional >> research ?to optimize ?, minimize fuel consumption , make goodquality gas , >> improve overall energy efficienmcy.Recent two piston ecomotors ?are under >> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking >> well proven can make possible as practical ?small energy genertion with low >> investments >> ? ? ? ?As you have ?open mind ?and open source ?ecobusiness model , making >> ?money from biomass waste can be reality , an proven ?very soon , yet ?now >> is an dream for many not an economicaly viable business, but technicaly >> feasible ?as your well made GEK gasifier working demonstrated >> ? ?Wish you all the sucess and thank you for your open minded ?sharing >> information ?of technical information ?with our list, I am happy ?to see You >> as an example and good model of other business ?venture bioenergy making >> ?private ?company ?to share not only the problems , but also ?share ?several >> important technical solution ?with open mind along with this ?list members, >> eventhough top secret, stat of art technology one ?can keep awy from the >> list >> Welcome you to bring here the problems and the real?isseu?and I ?am sure >> ?good way ?will be shown by several experts >> Yours truely >> Pannirselvam P.V >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:05 PM, jim mason <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less >>> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question. >>> >>> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts >>> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? ? my hunch is that >>> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double >>> carbon bonded refractory tars. ?we know we can do this by reducing >>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help >>> with this? >>> >>> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in >>> combustion environments where there is high steam. ?steam apparently >>> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. ?thus to the degree >>> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot >>> reduction. >>> >>> but what about during pyrolysis? ?does it reduce PAH production? ?do >>> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? ?in general, >>> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things >>> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream? >>> >>> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during >>> pyrolysis. ?i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue >>> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage. >>> >>> j >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Jim Mason >>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com >>> Current Projects: >>> ?? - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com >>> ?? - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: >>> www.escapefromberkeley.com >>> ?? - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs >>> ?? - Shipyard Announce list: >>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gasification mailing list >>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> [email protected] >>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> >>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> >>> for more Gasifiers, ?News and Information see our web site: >>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ >> >> >> >> -- >> ************************************************ >> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM >> ASSOCIATE . PROF. >> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator >> Computer aided? Cost engineering >> >> DEQ ? Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica >> CT ? Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ? Natal/RN >> Campus Universit?rio. CEP: 59.072-970 >> North East,Brazil >> ******************************************* >> https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/ >> ?and >> http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/ >> >> >> Fone ;Office >> 84 3215-3769 ,? Ramal 210 >> Home : 84 3217-1557 >> >> Mobile :558488145083 >> >> Email: >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gasification mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Gasifiers, ?News and Information see our web site: >> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ >> >> > > > > -- > ?Regards, > > Greg Manning, > Brandon, Manitoba, Canada > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:15:32 -0400 > From: Thomas Reed <[email protected]> > To: STOVES <[email protected]>, Discussion of > biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]>, Shivayam Ellis > <[email protected]>, Agua Das <[email protected]>, Paul > Anderson <[email protected]>, William Ayres <[email protected]>, > Michael Antal <[email protected]>, Julia Hasty <[email protected]>, > Art Krenzel <[email protected]>, Art Lilley <[email protected]> > Subject: [Gasification] Sheet metal design and prototyping > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Dear all > > My exceedingly clever (God) Grandson, Shivayam Ellis (son of AguaDas Ellis) > is starting a service at www.now cut.com to provide prototype sheet metal > parts from his X-Y cutting table, described below. > > Hard to beat. > > TomReed - BEF > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: photo.PNG > Type: image/png > Size: 406036 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110807/8cab77e6/attachment.png> > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > > > > > > Dr Thomas B Reed > President, The Biomass Energy Foundation > www.Woodgas.com > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > End of Gasification Digest, Vol 12, Issue 4 > ******************************************* > _______________________________________________ Gasification mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
