Re: g_b About aditya, bitchiness, prophets, and impotence

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:42:14 -0700


Hi again Aditya,

I understand what you are saying, and couldnt agree more that ritualism has overtaken spirituality for the most part, to the extent that most of the so-named prophets (no phropets !) would cringe to see what has become of their well meaning advice.

Your concern about the finality of the Bahai prophet's words is so true - its borne out already by Mr. Messenger who in his latest bulletin informs us that Muhammad was the last of them, look no further.

Now to the meat of it  - You say that you posed your rhetorical question about further prophets in the 'crassest' way because "only when asked in this manner will it provoke a response that exposes the hollowness of the rituals, semantics, and dogmas of all religious faiths". Did it work ? Did it provoke a response that exposed the hollowness of religious rituals ? No, it did not. It simply hurt some people, while others deleted it in irritation and disgust. If your question were not impolite, there was more of chance that you would be taken seriously, and thence get the response you elicited. Think about it.

You are without doubt, at liberty to tell off the bigots, but nothing that you have experienced in your life as a gay man, gives you the right to hurt the unbigoted. Unless you believe that innocents getting killed in military crossfire deserve no apologies.

Cheers
Salil

Aditya Bondyopadhyay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Salil,
 
I shall not dispute or deny your calling me crass. Sometime I feel that I am crass myself, and absolutely justify it as the freedom of my _expression_, without any remorse or regret. I am convinced that I cannot be changed, for I do not want to change. And I think I cannot be more honest than that. Thanks for writing in anyways.
 
As to the the pointer on Baha'ul'llah, yes I have been reading up on Baha'i literature for some time, and I am generally impressed, except where Baha'ul'llah and the Ba'ab pronuces on homosexuality, and denounces it as the crudest abomination. The Lotus Temple in Delhi for almost 6 years was nearly across the road from where I stayed in Kalkaji. I have had many interesting sessions with the many people from all parts of the world who flock there. What really rankled me is the virulence of the Baha'i dictates against homosexuality, when juxtaposed agains the general message of peace, harmony, and tolerance that permeates the Baha'i faith otherwise.
 
But more interestingly in your pointer is the line 'I'm their final consumation'. The finality of those innocent words will become the dogma of tomorrow when there will be a few hundred million more Baha'is in the world. Its a growing religion, only over a century old. Much like Islam was at one point. At that time when it was a youth of a religion, Islam was more concerned with the message and less with the dogma and the semantics of finality of its own phrophet. But the similarity is uncanny. Phrophets of all hues seem to be convinced of the finality and the end of phrophethood with them. The 'I'm the latest, best, and only possible version from here on', is the comomon thread to making phrophesies. By the time the dogma has taken roots over the message, Baha'is would also be calling for the blood of the newest phrophet in the horoizon, and his followers. The newest phrophet would be as much an apostate to the Baha'is as Baha'ul'llah was to the muslims of Iran.
 
And by the way another prophet is the leader of the Ahmediya sect, founded by Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) in a small and remote village, Qadian, in Punjab, India, who also followed after Phrophet Muhammad. Read more at http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html
 
Which brings me to your reading of why I asked the question on God not producing any more Prophets. I certainly was not simply curious about religious tradition. I know the tradition, of most major religions, and to be really honest, am not impressed. I posed a rhetorical question in the 'crassest' way because only when asked in this manner will it provoke a response that exposes the hollowness of the rituals, semantics, and dogmas of all religious faiths. The real message of religions remains important, the adherent sadly do not give half ounce of shit about the real message. They are just concerned with establishing their one upmanship, using mindless and mind numbing rituals as a weapon, and often by the process of finding the external enemy to beat up. Established religions and Fascism have an uncanny similarity in the way they ritualise everything and find some enemy to target. As a homosexual person, I have been beaten up enough number of times by religions and the religious, to have earned my right to be crass.
 
If this offends you, then its a clash between your offence and mine, your pain and mine, and your hurt and mine, so I dont really care. A bigot in a gay listserve will be told off, very crassly. God can go take a back seat while I speak to his bigots.
 
Best, Aditya


 
On 22/04/06, Salil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Manoj,

The word Impotent is most commonly used to denote the inability to get an erection, or more generally, to denote powerlessness. It is definitely not used to denote inability per se. It is a word that is bound to raise the hackles of those people on the list who choose to believe in God. Using Aditya's own lingo, this irritation is faitth-based and not logical in nature.

I feel you are ascribing noble motives to Aditya's email when in fact there are none. He simply seems curious about why religious tradition has not thrown up any prophets or messiahs after muhammad (which is an acceptable question) and he chooses to ask his question in a way that insults the faith of the majority of people who believe in speaking respectfully of God (which is what is unacceptable). Aman B. has meanwhile explained at great length why the lingo, and not the content per se, is objectionable.

While I and many others have in the past been sporting about Aditya's unique bitchy lingo and enjoy some of his emails, I am unable to play along with this comment, since I dont see how bitchiness can be an alternative to having respect for what is important to others. Then, one is just being crass, not bitchy.

I am agnostic myself and definitely a critic of organised religion. But I do not see how I can help myself or others by deliberately hurting others sensibilities. Its sad that on a list which brings together a minority which is facing insensitivity from the majority, one has to still debate on the inherent necessity to be sensitive to others feelings.

Incidentally Aditya, as prophets go, you could have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h
which is relevant to your question about whether further prophets have been spoken about in religious tradition since Mohammad. The first paragraph reads as follows :

"Bahá'u'lláh (Arabic: بهاء الله‎ translation: "Glory of God") ( 1817 - 1892), born Mírzá Husayn-`Alí ( Persian: میرزا حسین علی‎), was the founder and prophet of the Bahá'í Faith.
He claimed to fulfill the Bábí prophecy of " He whom God shall make manifest", but in a broader sense he also claimed to be the Messenger of God prophesied in all great religious traditions. He said that this day "is the king of days," for which "the soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted," and that "In this most mighty Revelation, all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation."
Regards
Salil

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