Hi Folks,
inevitably this discussion has taken on larger dimensions again - and I think
it is
good that it has, as maybe some "quiet" and/or less experienced listeners to
this
list can profit of it and reconsider their plans for a future buy. So I will
go more
into detail, and share my point of view with those who like to - all others
please
excuse this rather long mail ... ;-)
First off I would like to give my own point of view on the current "CB"
animals
that are sold worldwide. About a year ago a (then) very small number of these
animals were offered on a fair in germany. The breeder had pictures of his
truly
immense cages in an extra outdoors enclosure with him and showed lots of
eggshells and animals in them, too. And he commented very convincingly on
the way he breeds and keeps them - I must admit that at the time I really was
believing that his animals had achieved this coloration due to long outdoor
stays and were truly CB. The rather small number he had then were not out of
reach for a large breeding group, too, even though so far unheard of. The
papers
were there and accepted by the authorities ... so I bought guimbeaui and
cepis.
There were immediately put in isolation, and the fecals checked several times
- after all often larger captive groups carry parasites too, CB or not. Only
after
the fecals showed much heavier contamination I had first doubts - no CB group
should suffer from such large numbers of parasites AND thrieve as told ... .
And then more and more animals appeared on the market, and even in the US
and elsewhere ... it was only then I realized where these animals really must
have come from ... and I am sad about it (and having been tricked to buy
them).
But, I truly believe, that (as Magnus wrote) ...
> ... the problem is mainly not the breeders. Lots of us (me included) have
some
> of this animales in there collection,there is no doubt about that.Some of
these
> species(most recently P.V-nigra subsp.) are collected in huge numbers in the
> wild.That some of them reach responsible breeders in my opinion is good.
> Until we can produce enough offspring ourself this will unfortunately
continue.
> Most of this animales unfortunately does not reach these breeders.Most of
them
> are not sold because they are Phelsumas.They are sold because the person
> bying them want a green lizard.
These lines reach right to the basic of the problem - you either accept that
WC
animals are caught, shipped and sold - and then held and breed to produce CB
offspring and support a CB population, or you should TOTALLY disagree on any
wild species to be held in captivity, regardless on the current endangerment
or
such. After all, there was a "first time" (and very often a second, third and
forth
time...) for all species of reptiles in our posession - I don´t think they
have
materialized in our cages someday ;-) But as with some there are sufficient
numbers already CB-bred, no imports should be necessary and allowed, and
some that would be exctinct otherwise should be banned also (and often are ...
but there are always some we don´t really know about - Uroplatus ssp. for
example should be CITES animals, in my opinion ... ).
This principle leads "militant" naturalist (Pro Wildlife for example) in
europe and
germany to call for an absolute ban of wild animals - that would mean the well
established species as well as the endagered ones ... and I don´t think that
that
will help preserve the endangered species from extinction in any case. I very
much agree with Magnus that the number of animals that breeders buy are small
compared to the "mass market" that sadly is out there. Just set up a booth at
a
reptile fair and offer your CB Phelsumas - you will be amazed (and sad) on how
many people want to have a "nice cute green lizard", without ever considering
the animal´s needs or it´s possible endangerment in nature. All they care for
is
to get a nice and cheap pet - now it is up to the breeder to stop him from
doing
this. If you do so, and explain that you will not give away the animals under
these
circumstances, you will see the following - the customer moves on one booth,
were a commercial dealer has it´s display of Phelsuma. Often they will be
cheaper,
nicer in color (as WC), and not attached to a list of "do´s and don´ts" by the
dealer, who will do anything to convince him that this is a good choice and
will
not make any problems selling them at all. A last triumphant look in your
direction,
and a group of guimbeaui is taken to an uncertain future ... most probably
death :-(
Often then some weeks or months later these people will pop up on lists and
message boards and ask for the help and advice they first shunned when
offered -
now having single specimen due to losses and seeking replacements and advice.
THIS is what makes (illegal) import really worth the risk - I don´t think
there are a
tenth of dedicated keepers and breeders compared to the numbers of WC animals
that seem to have been imported lately.
> Futher moore regarding Cites.Cites is supposed to control the trade in
> endangered species.I do not know how it works in US,but it should be the
same,
> since Cites is a international agreement.When you apply for exportcites from
> Europe to Us or anywere you have to declare the purpose with this
animales.You
> do this with a letter.For instace B stand for the purpose to breed them in
captivity.
> This letter in my opinion should be one of the easiest to get permit
for.Unfortunately
> this is not the way it goes. Last time I exported animales to US I was
phoned by the
> authorities.They wondered if I could not change the letter B to a T.The T
stands for
> commercial.I do not know what you think,but in my eyes this is the opposite
to what
> Cites is supposed to be there for.
Having talked to some people more involved in the reptile trade, I was told
that the
current numbers of Phelsuma that are legally allowed to be exported (lineata
ssp.,
madagascariensis ssp., quadriocellata ssp., laticauda ssp.) by madagadcar are
delivered only to US and Japan, as the market (demand and prices) are better
there,
leading to an increase in price for CB-animals of these species in europe - a
good
thing for breeders here, but bad for the dealers as they seek other "sources"
...
probably leading to this latest mass offer of normally unavailable species
... so there
seems to be a big lack of control and feeling of responsibilty in
authorities, dealers
and - of course - customers, too. How to solve this problem? I dunno, sorry -
short
a complete ban of any trade or ownership of any reptile I don´t see a way to
stop
this from happening.
Another problem is that most species are less endangered by the pet trade
then by
the destruction of their (small) habiats in the wild. What use to prevent
them from
beeing sold here when maybe next week a deforestation bill will be granted
and the
woods cut for the chairs we then sit on? Or that the trade of Mantellas has
been
reduced to 0 in europe, and in madagacar a large mining company will probably
get
the rights to lay the swamps they live in dry for a new mining project? I
think that
we will increase the chances for these animals survival rather by supporting
nature-
conservation-projects more than by demanding and setting up more and more
controls of the trade and ownership here ... . After all, if the people in
the country
of origin see and accept the value of their nature as a trade good, then they
might
reconsider to cut that tree with geckos on it for a cookfire ... that this
can work
has been proven in other parts of the animal trade, and if more of the
revenue for
the phelsuma-sales would stay in the hands of those who catch them, they would
be more protective of their habitats - why destroy what the can live off? But
at the
moment they get almost nothing from the profits, so why not catch any and all
???
Wow, this has gotten long - but I think it is a very important topic to talk
about.
And for all who would rather act than talk, I want to inform you about a
current
project of a german organisation, "NAT" (Stiftung Natur- und Artenschutz in
den
Tropen) that is raising funds to get the swamp-rainforst near Andasibe
(exactly:
Torotorofotsy) to try to establish nature preserve zone there in cooperation
with
the madagascar gouvernment - species that live there are among others 3
mantella species, 13 chamaeleon-species, 5 Phelsuma-species and many more
- a total of 154 species are documented so far. Donations are sought and will
be
gladly accepted as far as I know - maybe some GGA members want to help, too?
In any case I believe that such projects will help the endangered species more
than more confines for the pet trade - smuggler have and will always exist :-(
And about the first stone ... always remember that someday in the past your
animals ancestors have had to been taken from somewhere in the wilds,too ...
.
Thank you for your time ;-)
Hartmut
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