We need to do some clarifying here as I am way off on what you're saying.
> Bruce,
>
> >If you don't like using target="_blank" what would you use?
>
> If I feel the need for a new window, I can always open one. Any browser
> (at least those that actually use windows ...) offers the option to open
> a link in a new window. Not many offer the option to not open links in a
> new window (Mozilla does, fortunately, but it's hidden in a config file
> somewhere).
>
> It's all about choice and not forcing your way of handling things down
> your visitor's throats.
I offer choice in that by clicking on a link they do *not* loose their place
in what they were viewing!!
I am not taking them away from where they were just reading. I always hope
that when I click on
a link will I loose my place! Now, if I knew that the designer was going to
force me
to open a new window I'd do so. I have several windows open, if suddenly I
click on a link and
I'm somewhere else away from where I'm reading, I'm lost. Many people have
no idea that they should
open another window just in case where they were reading will throw them
somewhere. In my solution they
can simply and easily close a window and they are *not* taken away from
where they were. To
me, to have a link in a forum or anywhere on a page for that matter open
right there where I'm reading is
like someone taking the book I'm reading out of my hands before I can even
note the page I'm
on and throwing something else in my face. I'd rather have what they want
to show me somewhere else.
Give me a chance to mark my place in the book and then look at what they
want to show me.
Not only that but out of concern for them I also make sure that every page
that I want to show them has a link
to get them back where they started. NO browser back arrows that scream
about content not there and do I want
to try to refresh the content. DHTML makes some admirable attempts at this
with views that appear near
an item and give further info. But alas DHTML is not standard in the way it
is implemented in all browsers.
So, far from forcing anything I am allowing the person to stay where they
want to be. If I'm ready to entirely
leave a web site then and only then will I do one of two things enter the
address in the address bar
or two open a new window with an option to open a blank window or my home
page. No click, surprise your lost.
I also can control the closing of any windows that are used. If I'm
scrolling through a list of downloads and click to
download, the new window opens but the old one is still there, right where I
left off. When the dowload is finished,
** I get to choose*** to close that window. The alternative is to look back
through all the open windows to figure out
which one had the page that interested me. When new content has replaced
the old I have to look at each
window individually and look at their history to find the one that had the
content I wanted to keep visible in the
first place.
>
>
> >Using frames for specific targets is not always the best coding style
>
> I think we can agree that frames are even worse than target="_blank".
Absolutely, positively not! I don't think I could imagine something more
beneficial than the proper use of
frames. I was just being shown that on a site that is out of Canada that
has interests in offering free inclusion of
similar writers sites into the site. I can update my site and that site
where it appears on their site will
automatically reproduce the changes. It is nicely integrated into the
content on the site.
Talk about Wow!!! That is a community idea!! The potential is amazing. I
can include so many different
items and so much content into one area allowing it to be fresh and updated
from elsewhere. News stories,
publications, forums, and the list is endless. On one end the content is
updated with fresh material and
yet I the visitor can go to one place and see what is new, or revisit what
was there. Entirely new sites can
be available within the same framework. And the community that is including
the page of mine, needs not be
told to do anything when I publish new material. Everyone will see it and I
don't even have to try to let everyone know
who might be intested in knowing.
Web Ferret is another example of how this is handled quite well.
It searches a number of search engines, creates a result set that appears in
two frames a small lower frame, that
can be adjusted in size and the results frame where I see the page. I click
through the results and see each one previewed
above. I can handle a large result set quickly moving through options.
Third a dictionary, encyclopedia, glossary. Do I want to click on the B's
and have the whole Dictionary setup go away? NO.
I can have each letter of a glossary in a left or bottom window and the
results can be shown above.
Frames are a must for a Community site that pulls in content from elsewhere,
especially if you want to keep the content fresh
and up to date. And guarantee that you can adopt and include content as it
changes on the site being pulled in.
>
>
> >1) I don't want my visitors lost somewhere else or ever leaving the
confines
> >of my site
>
> Force doesn't work on the WWW. Never has, never will. If the visitors
> want to leave your site, they'll leave. The only thing you can do is to
> annoy them such that they don't even want to come back ...
I won't come back if you take me away. If you have a community site and I
go away
I'm not spending the effort to figure out where I started. It's obvious to
me you don't have
any interest in showing me more. If you have two links to show me and I
click on the first link
and you send me away, don't expect me back. I follow a trail, tunneling
toward the information I
want. If I am sent in one direction, I'm going to follow that trail. If
you make it possible for me to still
return to your site because you have other content to show me, I'll know it
because your site will
remain visible to me. However, if you show me the first link and I look
there, and then it takes me
somewhere else, which gets me interested in something else, and so on, after
30 minutes I've forgotten
about your site and it's other links. Unless it's still open for me to see.
I publish a poetry magazine. If I have a link on the second page, that is
external, am I going to want
the person to loose their location in the magazine because they clicked on a
link? Of course not! I want
the pages to look the same, like they are reading a magazine. If there is a
neat link that doesn't
mean I want the poetry magazine crumpled and gone, with a user saying,
"where did it go? where is it?"
I was just reading about this guys poetry and I clicked on a link to see
some other work by him and now the
magazine is gone."
Yeah, I can make sure I don't include any external links until the person
gets to the last
page but that is controlling how a person reads. I just want to keep the
look of the publication throughout.
I can do that and keep the look of the magazine throughout. ... giving the
reader a marker
as it were. It's like that with a community site. I want my content in the
community area. I want some
content to come from here and some from there but it all comes together into
a "community" area.
Some might be displayed from a site across the world and appear in a block
upper right or
center right. I can read through there but I have the safe feeling of
knowing
that I'm in a certain area. I'm not lost.
I might want to have the option of going through pages and information
in one block that is nicely
placed but that's what I expect from a community site. Collaborative
content! It means others can go about
shaping their pages and allow me to include it in a community and not have
to worry about
what they do with their site.
I obviously have no control over whether they link back to some page on
my site. Put it in a block
on my site and I don't have to worry. I can now offer that to the visitor
at the visitor's choosing.
>
>
> >2) I don't want my visitors to ever have to rely on a back arrow on their
> >browset to get back to where they were and the exact place where they
were
> >reading.
>
> The back button is one of the essential means of navigation on the web.
> Why break it?
It is broken. I can't count the times when I hit return and information
that was live is gone.
A community site is just that a (meaning one) site. The back arrow is for
other sites. Take listing on ebay...
you forget something right after hitting next. Does the back arrow work
perfectly? No. you get this screaming
dialogue box suggesting you might find what you put in there or it could be
all gone. The content that shows up
on a back button is not always predicatable. It may be that it's 2 buttons
back or longer before you get
to wherer you were. Or you are caught in a loop that the back button can't
get you out of. A good web
design has a home link, a consistent navigation throughout. I don't have to
think, "ok, where am I and how
do I get here or there?" If I fill out a form I don't want to go back to
the form. That option will be there
if i need it to be. I can make it easier on the user by giving them a
choice of links. If each page has the same menu then every page has
the same way to get to where I want. Even if I want to go back to the form,
if I've included it on the
menu, which I always will, then it's right there for the visitor. Just
click on the same menu item they say on the
first page they visited and the nth page. And if I open a new windows that
new window will include that same
menu. I've covered all bases.
Since, I have all options on the site available to the visitor what am I
forcing on them? They can type in a new address,
they can go to any page they choose. Any page... it's all on the menu.
>
Oh, I'm just beginning....For every anecdote you have I'm sure I'll find
about 10 others. I love to write.
So, this will be fun. :-)
Bruce
> My favourite anecdote is when I had pretty much the same discussion with
> a friend who used target="_blank" all over his site. While we had that
> discussion, someone was actually browsing said friend's site on a PC next
> to us. And at some point, that person uttered his confusion about the
> back button not working any more. Guess what? A link had opened in a new
> window without him noticing it, hiding the original window. The only
> thing he did notice was that his back button didn't work, causing him
> some frustration.
>
> You don't want to frustrate the visitors of your site.
>
>
> [paraphrasing 3) - 14)]
> > I ... I ... I ...
>
> Don't forget that websites are mainly for your visitors, not for
> yourself. Give them the choice to browse it the way THEY want.
>
>
> >So, if it is easy to add myself, I'll look at that config.php file.
>
> It is not in config.php.
>
> Which links exactly are you talking about? I've already pointed out where
> you can change it for links from RSS feeds. For Geeklog's links section,
> change the template files (in layout/YourTheme/links), and for links in
> stories, you'll have to add the target attribute in the list of allowed
> HTML tags (that one is actually in config.php - see the documentation and
> the FAQ for details).
>
>
> >No, it's not on my hard drive, as it was installed from the server using
> >Fantastico.
>
> K, didn't think of hosts that have Geeklog pre-installed. It should be
> somewhere outside of your webroot, i.e. not in any directory that can be
> accessed from the web. It shouldn't be too hard to find.
>
> bye, Dirk
>
>
> --
> http://www.haun-online.de/
> http://www.haun.info/
>
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