On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> --On Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:09 AM +0100 Stephen Colebourne
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> I think the ultimate question here is what organization best benefits the
> >> committers.
> > Huh! Is this not very self centered? Surely we should be asking what is best
> > for ours customers/users.
>
> No.  Because whether it is in Jakarta Commons, or ASF Commons, the users get
> the same 'deal.'  It's under the Apache Software License, freely available.
> Websites are available, the infrastructure is the same.  So, I think the user
> wouldn't care whether its under ASF Commons or Jakarta Commons.
>
> I believe the only difference, in this case, is what the committers believe.
>
> > My problem with Commons remains its cross-language aims, and I have always
> > disagreed with division by functionality. (For example start thinking about
> > what the website home page will be like. It will have an introduction and
> > then a list of Java components, and a list of Perl components and a list of
> > C# components.......  No way is that ever serving the users well.)
>
> Then, I think you are taking a very short-sighted view of the world.
> Everything is not just Java.  I think functional groupings are probably more
> useful.  Is an HTTP Client in Java and C *that* fundamentally different?  I
> don't believe so.

We're back to this chestnut again, which I think will only be shown in the
proof of the pudding [metaphors r us]. Both sides are short-sighted:

1) Yes, everything is not just Java. Java sites that use PHP+Apache for
their sites fight this regularly.
2) Java is an insular community [due I believe to the fact that the other
communities ostracised it]. Java developers are very tired of having to
deal with antagonistic MS and open-source attitudes.

A Java HTTP Client project can learn a lot from a C HTTP Client, but no
user of a Java HTTP Client will ever consider the C HTTP Client as a valid
alternative [okay, very small % might].

Now, Ant, Maven, Tomcat could all be written in C without a problem [I
don't think a Java Web server has to be written in Java, just has to be
able to compile/plugin Java], but I imagine it's unlikely to happen.

> The problems that they have to solve are essentially the same.  I
> believe it'd be beneficial to pool our resources aligned on functional
> groupings rather than language barriers that aren't very strong to begin
> with.  -- justin

This is also short-sighted. There is a very strong language barrier
between Java and other languages. It's not a wonderful thing to have, but
pretending that it's the same strength as C to Tcl, or Perl to Python will
just ostracise the Java [read Jakarta] bits more.

Hen

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