> I'm a novice at J...my eyes glaze when trying to read the latest emails in the programming forum about the new modifier trains.
Me too. > Have a long hill to climb for sure. There's a plateau at: understand most of the verbs in the _z_ locale (aka stdlib). Some people just stay there. Enjoy a stroll in the hills – leave the Matterhorn alone. On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 at 02:12, P PadilCDX <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm a novice at J...my eyes glaze when trying to read the latest emails > in the programming forum about the new modifier trains. Have a long hill > to climb for sure. > > But thank you for the extensive response. > > On 12/19/21 5:43 PM, Ian Clark wrote: > > Two separate points to make about this: > > > > 1. Use of the term "vocabulary" invites terminological confusion. > > J originally shipped with a Help package of HTML pages, still accessible > on > > the web as: https://www.jsoftware.com/help/ > > Top of each page is the list of links: >> > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/index.htm> << > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/index.htm> Usr > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/user/contents.htm> Pri > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm> JfC > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/jforc/contents.htm> LJ > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/learning/contents.htm> Phr > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/phrases/contents.htm> Dic > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/contents.htm> Voc > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm> !: > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/xmain.htm> Help > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/index.htm> ... > > Voc is simply a chapter of Dic, aka *The J Dictionary* (JDic) > > However... > > NuVoc on J wiki resides in a folder named: Vocabulary > > I thought then, and still think, this was a mistake which would only sow > > confusion. But it's too late to fix now. > > > > 2. P PadilCDX writes: > >> I like the format of the old vocabulary page more than the nuvoc > > page. But that is probably just me... > > > > No, it's not just you. A lot of people prefer Voc to NuVoc. And so they > > should. > > Anyone who was a J expert prior to 2012 will naturally prefer it. > > Familiarity with a Help library is the key to its effective use. > > Moreover… > > I too like the format of Voc more than NuVoc. For a start, a page fits on > > one screen (usually). > > But this doesn't translate to preferring Voc to NuVoc for all purposes, > > because their objectives are different. > > > > ++ Voc, or rather JDic, was written (by KEI and RH) as a language > standard. > > The authors have declared (…reference, please?) that any language > > interpreter conforming to *The J Dictionary* is a proper J. > > In the 1990s J's audience was the early adopter, already expert in APL, > who > > wanted a definitive document to study. During which time they could give > it > > their whole attention. > > The examples were kept few in number, and each example tried to exhibit > as > > many features of the primitive under discussion as possible. > > The needs of the novice user were ignored, or at least subordinated to > the > > chief objective: to serve as a formal document. Doesn't the Help package > > have Pri <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm> JfC > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/jforc/contents.htm> LJ > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/learning/contents.htm> Phr > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/phrases/contents.htm> for the novice? > > > > ++ NuVoc, by contrast, was originally aimed at a specialized audience: > the > > novice engaged in coding a real-world task, who wanted a quick and easy > > introduction to a given primitive. It was written in babytalk because the > > reader was focused on his/her own application, with little brainpower to > > spare for the task of extracting meaning from a slew of big words. > > Thus, for *Times* (*), each document starts off as follows… > > *JDic*: * denotes multiplication, defined as in elementary mathematics > and > > extended to complex numbers as usual: *…[a forbidding code sample > follows]* > > *NuVoc*: The product of two numeric nouns, x and y *…[the simplest code > > sample follows]* > > All else was sacrificed to that one objective: serving the novice user. > And > > that includes the (Voc) format which both P PadilCDX and I find so > pleasing. > > > > Others made the decision to expand NuVoc to become the all-purpose J > > reference text – and later, to freeze JDic and update only NuVoc for new > J > > features. Initially I was horrified: how could the prime objective of > NuVoc > > be preserved if it were to be overloaded like that – and how can it > > possibly serve as a language standard? (…please challenge if you > disagree.) > > > > However, besides naturally being gratified, I soon saw the wisdom of > > Jsoftware not trying to ride two horses at once. Apple maintains two > > matched sets of documentation for competing languages (Objective-C vs > > Swift) – and even with its mongol hordes it finds the task daunting. > > > > But the implications for computer science are profound. J no longer has a > > language standard – as KEI and RH seem to have intended. Just one for J > as > > it was when JDic was frozen (…I've forgotten when that was). It's a safe > > objective to jettison, because to-date Jsoftware is the sole vendor of a > J > > language translator, and is apt to remain so. > > > > To sum up: it's quite permissible IMO for JHS and Jwiki to link to JDic > > where appropriate. JDic (although frozen) hasn't been deprecated: just > > augmented for a specialized purpose. NuVoc has extensive support for > > jumping through to JDic wherever this is helpful. > > > > But it would be nice to avoid labelling a link "vocabulary" since this > word > > is ambiguous and confusing to a novice. > > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 22:14, P PadilCDX <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I noted that in JHS the vocabulary link doesn't point to NuVoc but to > >> the older vocabulary page. Is that a miss? Several links in the wiki > >> also point to old vocabulary page. > >> > >> PS. I like the format of the old vocabulary page more than the nuvoc > >> page. But that is probably just me... > >> > >> > >> Thanks. > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
