and you got your answer…. what changes? Jeff
> On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a > question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using > Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are part > of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions > expressed by individuals. > > Thanks, > > Gunnar > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org > <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org>> wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org > > <mailto:r...@apache.org>> wrote: > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is > > not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall, > > three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are > > currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users > > even though they are targeting primarily Chinese. > > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs reside. > ;-) Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose country > is the best. That does nobody any good and its straw man. > > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I > stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my > statement. Read it again. That was certainly *not* my argument and my > argument was most *definitely* defensible. > > I never said English will bring in more users than China. I *did* say that > if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a > more international language. Outside of China I will also say that the rest > of the world mostly does not know Chinese. > > For the record, I am a messaging lover. I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ, > and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as RabbitMQ. > I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in Chinese, I > will likely never play with your software. Now based on your tone, I am > guessing that likely you do not care. That is fine. But there are a lot of > folks who will be in the same boat as me. *You* need to define on who your > want your audience to be. > > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” > because our main language is an international one. But it’s not going to > change your situation or position. > > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then > getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear. What > responses were you looking for? Were you looking that the rest of the > members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea? If > this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in > attempting to answer you. > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org > > <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org > > <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org>>> wrote: > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most > > international language, not because its the most used in the world. Thus > > it helps cross borders for communication. At the end of the day, I think > > you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders > > or not. Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)? I can tell you > > that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into > > problems or issues using Apache software. If the discussions are in > > Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion > > from outside of China. I think you really need to think about who you want > > your users to be and how you want your product adopted. > > > > In addition, this is an incubated project. AFAICT, the champion doesn’t > > speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do. This > > means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when > > they are needed. It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any > > problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue. In the > > unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, > > the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper > > insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language. > > > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a > > language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that. But my .02 is > > that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community > > would be getting as many people and users involved as possible. If you > > don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that > > you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders. I think > > that would be a shame. OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a > > Chinese piece of software. I guess that is ok too… but I would be > > interested in why. > > > > Just my usual .02. > > > > Jeff > > > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <t...@spicule.co.uk > > > <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk > > > <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk>>> wrote: > > > > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about > > > diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but > > > obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others. > > > > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never > > > happened" didn't mention the language. > > > > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non > > > Chinese speaking people follow development? > > > > > > > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org>> <mailto:r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org>>>> wrote: > > > Adding members@ > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org>> <mailto:r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org > > > <mailto:r...@apache.org>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in > > > > English? > > > > > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as > > > > English > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when > > > > it > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much > > > > lower > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn > > > > English > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese. > > > > > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also > > > > exclude > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of > > > > native > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 > > > > according > > > > to Wikipedia. > > > > > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries, > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Thanks, > > Gunnar > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
