The private list is important to watch anyways as a project that can't provide oversight to said mailing list is typically in danger of dying. Adding moderators for the list would certainly help.
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 17:56, Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 4, 2020, at 2:52 PM, leerho <lee...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > John, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > First understand that this site (community.a.o) is maintained by comdev. > >> Podlings should be following the processes at http://incubator.apache.org/ > > > > > > I searched incubator.a.o and could not find any comparable documentation > > that is step-by-step with example template emails. There are several pages > > devoted to educating new committers, but I could not find much on inviting > > new committers. So in the absence of good documentation I used what I > > could find. Also, I have never read anywhere that podlings should not be > > reading or following the ASF documentation. Presumably, the ASF > > documentation preempts incubator documentation in most cases. > > > > No. Why do you think it will disappear into the "bit-bucket"? The > >> candidate would have the email in their inbox and would be able to archive > >> it/save it for reference however they choose fit. > > > > > > Because it has been over 24 hours since our candidate replied and it still > > does not show up in our private@ mail list. If our mentors have the > > responsibility to moderate the private list, why is it that none of our 5 > > mentors have not forwarded it? Whether it is technically a bit-bucket or > > not is irrelevant. If our mentors don't moderate the list and forward an > > important email such as a committer invite, it is effectively a > > bit-bucket! So our candidate is sitting waiting for the next steps and is > > hearing nothing! That is unacceptable. > > Not all mentors are moderators. I am not. > > These three are moderators. > chenliang...@apache.org > <https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/committer/chenliang613>, > kam...@apache.org <https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/committer/kamaci>, > k...@apache.org <https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/committer/kenn> > > The information is here: https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/datasketches > > > > > WRT: Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without > > needing to go through the patch submission process. --- (A ill-advised > > implication) > > > > That's a fair point, but not all projects follow this pattern. In > >> addition, the template is free to be modified by each project, you're under > >> no obligation to follow the published format verbatim; so if your project > >> chooses to invite someone and wants to reword the text you can. > >> > > > > I recognize that these templates can be changed by the user. But you are > > missing my point. Why start with a recommendation that is ill-advised to > > start with? Many folks simply copy these templates making as few changes > > as possible without reading the content and thinking about the > > implications. And I have proof of this happening with senior ASF folks. > > > > I am a bit puzzled why you are pushing back so hard on my recommendations. > > I am a great fan of the ASF and I just want to improve the documentation > > and make it better! > > > > Regards, > > Lee. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:54 PM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:31 PM, John D. Ament <johndam...@apache.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:19 PM leerho <lee...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Folks, > >>>> > >>>> It is our first time going through the recommended New Committer process > >>>> and we have uncovered some significant problems with the documentation > >>>> <https://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html#new-committer-process>. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> First understand that this site (community.a.o) is maintained by comdev. > >>> Podlings should be following the processes at > >> http://incubator.apache.org/ > >>> > >>> > >>>> - The most serious problem is step A: of the "Committer Invite > >> Template" > >>>> on the above page: > >>>> > >>>> A. This personal invitation is a chance for you to > >>>>> accept or decline in private. Either way, please > >>>>> let us know in reply to the [priv...@project.apache.org] > >>>>> address only. > >>>>> > >>>>> This is a potential disaster, since the candidate will not have read or > >>>> write privileges to the private mail list, the candidate's reply will > >>>> simply disappear into the bit-bucket! I would recommend changing this > >>>> paragraph to: > >>>> > >>>> A. Please reply directly to me if you wish to accept (or not accept) > >> this > >>>>> invitation. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> No. Why do you think it will disappear into the "bit-bucket"? The > >>> candidate would have the email in their inbox and would be able to > >> archive > >>> it/save it for reference however they choose fit. private mailing lists > >>> may have moderation in place, but since it's a legitimate email the > >>> moderators of the list should moderate it through if it does get > >>> moderated. The acceptance should also be on the podling's private list > >> to > >>> allow the ASF to have a permanent record of the acceptance. > >> > >> I have moderated numerous such requests in the past. Usually within 24 > >> hours, but occasionally within 104 hours. > >> > >> I have a Smart Mail filter to make sure that I see all moderation emails > >> even though the vast majority are spam. > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Presumably the person sending this message will be someone from the PMC > >> / > >>>> PPMC that the candidate already has had some contact with. Also, > >> hopefully, > >>>> the sender has enough good sense to not CC non-private mail lists or > >> other > >>>> people on the invite, which will make the exchange as private as > >> possible. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Yes, the person sending the invite needs to be on the PMC/PPMC. > >> Typically > >>> this is done by whoever actually did the nomination but there is no > >> formal > >>> rule about who must or must not send it (in some TLPs I think they expect > >>> the chair to do it, podlings don't have chairs). > >> > >> Typically a response is required in 30 days and the PPMC and Mentors will > >> need to track the result. > >> > >> Sometimes a nominee has to ask their company if they can sign an ICLA and > >> not every one can. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Dave > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - The next problem is the wording of the first sentence of the > >>>> 2nd paragraph: > >>>> > >>>> Being a committer enables you to more easily make > >>>>> changes without needing to go through the patch > >>>>> submission process. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> This is basically recommending bad programming practice! We encourage > >> all > >>>> our committers to use the PR and review process on all but the most > >> trivial > >>>> commits (e.g., documentation typos). I would recommend simplifying this > >>>> sentence to: > >>>> > >>>> Being a committer grants you write access to the project repositories. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> That's a fair point, but not all projects follow this pattern. In > >>> addition, the template is free to be modified by each project, you're > >> under > >>> no obligation to follow the published format verbatim; so if your project > >>> chooses to invite someone and wants to reword the text you can. > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - This next issue is somewhat a matter of style, but I would recommend > >>>> replacing the entire section "B" with: > >>>> > >>>> B. If you accept, you will receive a follow-up message with the next > >> steps > >>>>> for establishing you as a committer. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The above changes will make the invite letter simpler and more > >>>> straightforward. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Once you've invited the person to be a committer, they should be able to > >>> submit the ICLA on their own. Someone on the PMC/PPMC shouldn't need to > >>> tell them how to do it, but the instructions included in B are pretty > >> clear > >>> and help that committer figure out how to submit the forms as needed. > >>> > >>> > >>>> I would be happy to submit these changes as a PR but someone will have > >> to > >>>> tell me where to do this. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> > >>>> Lee. > >>>> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> > >> > -- Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
