To continue having fun replying to myself:

This mail list seems to be akin to a JCP-announce list. It seems to be
Harold Ogle sending out announcements that new documents are available at
the JCP. Useful, but not really what I was asking Robert to show existence
of.

Hen

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:

>
> [Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP
> in a text browser the mail archives are at:
>
> http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html
>
> Time for more spam :)
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >
> > > > But who speaks for JCP?
> > >
> > > Those who chose to be involved.
> >
> > I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
> > I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
> > would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.
> >
> > > > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > > > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > > > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
> > >
> > > High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> > > You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> > > minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
> > >
> > > Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> > > commercial entities: $5000
> > > educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> > > individuals: $0
> > > existing licensees: $0
> > >
> > > If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> > > problems to deal with.
> >
> > I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
> > for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
> > money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
> > such money.
> >
> > > > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > > > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > > > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > > > registration].
> > >
> > > That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> > > giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> > > submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> > > some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> > > example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> > > give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> > > are the errant employees.
> >
> > I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
> > individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
> > information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
> > at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
> > at work.
> >
> > I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
> > individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
> > one JSR at a time?
> >
> > > > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > > > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
> > >
> > > Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> > > the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
> >
> > Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
> > the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
> > see no JCP-wide voting.
> >
> > > > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > > > picture it is often portrayed as?
> > >
> > > Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> > > isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
> >
> > I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
> > JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.
> >
> > > > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > > > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > > > JCP
> > >
> > > Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> > > Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
> >
> > And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
> > seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
> > over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
> > natural speaker.
> >
> > > > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > > > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > > > and not a better future for Java.
> > >
> > > *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> > > rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
> > > coporates" than you need a reality check.
> >
> > I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :)
> >
> > > The thing that stops them is
> > > popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
> > > teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
> > > different nature than you percieve.
> >
> > Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual
> > developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss
> > at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal
> > official for that company?
> >
> > > The drive to open source the JDK is being
> > > driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
> > > that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
> > > java.
> >
> > Where are the mail archives to back this up? Where do the members of the
> > JCP discuss the state of the Java world?
> >
> > > > To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
> > > > large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
> > >
> > > So join it. Whats stopping you?
> >
> > Lack of money, lack of a JSR to join, and lack of awareness that there was
> > any cross-JCP community in existence to join.
> >
> > > > While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
> > > > almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.
> > >
> > > Microsoft does what it wants and when it wants. (notice the period) When .NET
> > > is 2 years old and starts to show the defects and missing features we have
> > > seen in the JDK, microsoft will fix it when they get good and damn well ready
> > > to. Further, if you think they arent doing .NET to dive their sales of
> > > windows than we will have to upgrade you from naive to stupid.
> >
> > They're reacting to the fact that their languages were looking pathetic
> > compared to Java. In 2 years .Net will start to get lumbered down with
> > hacks and additions and in 5 years it'll be as bad as the current Windows
> > stuff is now. Thankfully the current clean MS system seems to be worrying
> > enough that Java is making more aggressive language changes.
> >
> > > Microsoft has
> > > shown *REPEATEDLY* to be an unethical company that believes it is above the
> > > law.
> >
> > I'm an Apple/Linux user. I'm currently using Windows at work in an effort
> > to make sure I continue true to the nature of being able to develop on any
> > platform. Being a pawn in Jobs' surprise plans is not much more fun than
> > in Gates' empire building.
> >
> > > You have a choice. Go to .NET and leave your business, economic and personal
> > > future to your trust in Microsoft.
> >
> > Reality is, that while an MS job is not very exciting for the next 5
> > years, it's probably quite safe. Tell that to the Ruby developer working
> > on the next big thing.
> >
> > > Alternatively you could stick with an
> > > admitedly flawed but still functional and respected process in java. Pick
> > > number 1 and you risk proving Orwell correct. No thanks.
> >
> > Or I could raise a voice in the hope of seeing a better choice. It still
> > dissapoints me that Perl users gets the Apocalypse and the Exogesis for
> > Perl 6, while us Java users get a bit of legality at the JCP and a few
> > years of rumours.
> >
> > Hen
> >
> >
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> >
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