In my plan this gets delayed until Tetsuya qualifies for membership ;-) -Andy
On 7/14/03 4:37 PM, "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both > inside and outside. > > andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside > apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i > also agree with taking part of the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] not > only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members > step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground. > > - robert > > On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: > >> -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should >> keep the discussion on a list open to everyone! >> >> On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, "Robert Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of >>> introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation. It seems >>> the >>> consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level >>> programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache >>> project, rather a Jakarta subproject. >>> >>> (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only >>> message >>> on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG. You can set up >>> message >>> filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either >>> place....) >>> >>> A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is >>> included in my message below. >>> >>> I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself. Is there anyone else >>> interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F >>> below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting >>> entry >>> into incubation? >>> >>> TIA. >>> Robert Simpson >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? >>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 >>> From: robert burrell donkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>>> I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common >>>> internationalization >>>> framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are >>>> non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and >>>> other users of the code. >>> >>> i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english >>> speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members >>> than >>> committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are >>> native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to >>> spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. >>> >>> but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even >>> if >>> that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end >>> up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in >>> xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n >>> framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an >>> idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. >>> >>> i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested >>> by Tetsuya Kitahata. >>> >>> - robert >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject >>> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 >>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, >>> the >>> solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) >>> identified >>> in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to >>> have a >>> program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation >>> needs to >>> be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the >>> section via machine translation, to be refined by the human >>> translator). The >>> XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was >>> prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for >>> example) >>> or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular >>> translation >>> would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be >>> identified >>> and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing >>> section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could >>> then >>> be translated back into the original and other translations. This >>> arrangement >>> could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a >>> Spanish >>> translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be >>> commented on >>> (ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted on by >>> translators of other languages, etc.... >>> >>> Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project >>> would be >>> ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache >>> project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java >>> support >>> done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, >>> from the >>> start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the >>> ultimate goal. >>> >>> So, in summary, the organization of the project would be: >>> >>> 1. code common to both (1) and (2) >>> 1.1 code >>> This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as >>> the code >>> to do comparisons between translations >>> 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, >>> etc) >>> 1.1.2 Java >>> 1.1.2.1 source code >>> 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers) >>> 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly >>> >>> 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases) >>> 2.1 code >>> This would include the code to generate programming-language-specific >>> resources, and provide access to those resources >>> 2.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, >>> etc) >>> 2.1.2 Java >>> 2.1.2.1 source code >>> 2.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers) >>> 2.1.2.2 resources (translations, generated from XML) >>> 2.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly >>> 2.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages >>> 2.1.3+.2 resources for other programming languages (translations, >>> generated >>> from XML) >>> 2.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral) >>> 2.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files, >>> JUnit tests for file verification, etc) >>> 2.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations) >>> 2.2.2.1 XML format >>> 2.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers) >>> 2.2.2.2 English user references >>> 2.2.2.2.1 XML formatted user reference (generated, XSL-FO?) >>> 2.2.2.2.2 HTML formatted user reference (generated, possibly with a >>> doclet) >>> 2.2.2.2.3 PDF formatted user reference (generated, possibly from XML user >>> reference using Apache XML-FOP) >>> 2.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly >>> >>> 3. internationalization of complete documents >>> 3.1 code >>> This would include code or tools (possibly making use of other Apache >>> code) >>> to generate specific document file formats >>> 3.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, >>> etc) >>> 3.1.2 Java >>> 3.1.2.1 source code >>> 3.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers) >>> 3.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly >>> 3.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages >>> 3.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral) >>> 3.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files, >>> JUnit tests for file verification, etc) >>> 3.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations) >>> 3.2.2.1 XML format (based on XSL-FO?) >>> 3.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers) >>> 3.2.2.2 HTML format (generated) >>> 3.2.2.3 PDF format (generated, possibly using Apache XML-FOP) >>> 3.2.2.4+ other document file formats (generated) >>> 3.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly >>> >>> The main difference between sections (2) and (3) is that (2) is organized >>> primarily by programming language, with the programming-language-specific >>> resources as part of the first subsection (2.1) keeping the second >>> section >>> (2.2) programming-language-neutral, while (3) is organized primarily by >>> spoken >>> language, with the programming-language-independent file formats as part >>> of >>> the second subsection (3.2), keeping them separate from the >>> programming-language-specific stuff in the first subsection (3.1). >>> >>> I'd be willing to work on the common code and user interface code, and it >>> looks like there is a good starting list for the language translators. >>> Is >>> there anyone willing to drive the second part, the internationalization >>> of >>> complete documents? >>> >>> I can also be update the proposal as indicated above, and then let it be >>> reviewed/modified here, or in CVS somewhere. In your replies to the >>> mailing >>> list, please indicate in which of the following ways you might be >>> willing to >>> contribute: >>> >>> A) committer for code for internationalization of user interface and >>> possibly >>> common code >>> B) committer for code for internationalization of complete documents and >>> possibly common code >>> C) language translation (either or both UI or documents) >>> D) sponsor entry of Java version of Internationalization subproject into >>> Jakarta >>> E) incorporate internationalization into another Apache/Jakarta >>> sub/project >>> (please specify) >>> F) none of the above >>> >>> Robert Simpson >>> >>> Santiago Gala wrote: >>> >>>> Robert Simpson escribi�: >>>>> Santiago Gala, >>>>> >>>>> As far a document and resource translation, I'm not sure if you are >>>>> referring to machine translation, or human translation. My focus has >>>>> been on human translation, mainly because machine translation is >>>>> still pretty far from perfect. There could be APIs for interfaces to >>>>> various machine translation tools, such as Systransoft, but I think >>>>> that should be a later, secondary priority. Even if there was >>>>> support for machine translation, I would prefer that it could be >>>>> augmented by human proofreading and revision. So it's probably just >>>>> as easy to let the language translator use whatever machine >>>>> translation tool s/he prefers. >>>>> >>>> >>>> David Taylor has already anwered WRT code. >>>> >>>> I was thinking mostly about having a "pool" of people who can translate >>>> and are more or less "cross project". For instance, I can translate >>>> English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also >>>> translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some >>>> XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules. >>>> >>>> The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT >>>> translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people >>>> will "see" beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds >>>> of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od >>>> people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample >>>> but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.) >>>> >>>> The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a >>>> crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to >>>> impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on >>>> both the original doc and the translations in sync. >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> -- >>>> Santiago Gala >>>> High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) >>>> http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >> >> -- >> Andrew C. Oliver >> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp >> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI >> >> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi >> For Java and Excel, Got POI? >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
