Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There
is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:

 Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
 Struts PMC: struts and related code
 Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
 Tapestry PMC: ...

All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the
Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We
have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam.  The
above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board.  The question
is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.

This is nothing I would encourage.  There's really no question that
it's legal.  But it does then make Jakarta a website, rather than a
community, IMO.  I'd rather see the community.

I want to see a community, too. But I see two issues:

  1) to me a community is a people with common goals and interests.
     As Howard illustrated, and others have commented, that is not
     the case throughout Jakarta.

This is rarely the case - even inside the smallest subproject. Everyone has different itches and goals.

2) the PMC is responsible for the immediate oversight of the project.

Not every "subproject" needs to have its own PMC, but every project needs
one with immediate oversight.  Jakarta Commons is a nice example of a
Community that takes collective responsibility for a diverse set of
unrelated projects.  Every Committer sees every e-mail (except for HTTP
Client, which feels like it is more off on its own), has access to every
piece of code, and can vote on every item.  When the recent IP issue came up
in J-C, if it had a PMC properly connected to it could have taken care of
the situation immediately, rather than sending the person involved on a
quest for oversight.  That illustrates the difference in approach.  You
don't go find the PMC.  The PMC *is* the core group developing the project.

Actually - it's jakarta PMC that does the oversight for Jakarta commons and all other jakarta subprojects.

The fact that commons has a single list doesn't mean anything - not everyone _reads_ every email, even if it is sent on the same list.
Each PMC member is expected to monitor the projects he is involved with and eventually volunteer for more - and each code base needs to have few
PMC members monitoring it.

I see the creation of these PMCs as doing very little other than moving de
jure decision-making to where the de facto decision-making ALREADY EXISTS.
I do not see this as being negative with respect to Community.  Can you
explain why you feel otherwise?

There is no need to move anything - same people will do the same thing. Jakarta PMC is composed of people from all jakarta projects, and each is
looking at a subset of jakarta projects.

There is an alternative: all, or most, active Committers would come onto the Jakarta PMC, and there would be one entry in the CVS avail file so that every Committer has access to every Jakarta project. But I, personally, don't see that as doing anything for making Tapestry feel any more a part of the same Community as they feel today.

This is not an alternative - it is something that has to happen anyway.

All committers who are active in jakarta are are willing should be part of the jakarta PMC. That's how things work in httpd and this is the right thing to do.

If tapestry ( or any other sub-project ) doesn't feel like beeing part of a jakarta community or doesn't like oversight by the jakarta PMC - it is free to apply for top level status.

There are enough people "encoraging" projects to leave jakarta - hopfully the projects that remain will be those that feel comfortable
as part of jakarta and with the other remaining projects. Which would be good for everyone.

IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and "server side" java
( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).


In any event, those are two possible structures.  We agree that either way,
we need to communicate to the new PMC members their responsibilities in
terms of ensuring that the IP remains clean.

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