> What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
> This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
> ashamed of it, don't do open source community.

The source code is open, "Open Source" and to support this the development
process is also open and public.
The organisation is not run to be an example of open management, only to
support the development of code released under an open source licence.
That the ASF also encourages open and concesus based decision making is not
the same as requiring every issue to be discussed in public.
There are times when it is necessary to denigrate individuals and groups in
order to have a true examination of relevant issues and a full airing of
opinion. It is not necessarily right, or desirable, that we should seek to
have such opinions aired in the spotlight that focuses on Apache.

> What do I mean by that:
> ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit
> the code to do it.

ASF is still libertarian as far as I can see.
It is still a meritocracy.
You can still commit code, or contribute patches, same as ever.
There is, however, a move afoot to seek ways in which Jakarta can best
represent itself and support the ambitions of the communities which form

This debate started off on the PMC list where PMC members are free to
openly criticise and denigrate each other and the structure and
organisation of the project without having to worry that their criticism
will enter the public domain.

This debate has now moved here due to prompting and cross posting by PMC
members themselves who felt that it was wrong to conduct it behind closed
This is as it should be, it demonstrates that the PMC is working properly,
and the widespready support for a public debate suggests that it was the
correct move.

> ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
> Now some are trying to develop "rulling" class, that is carving out
> roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
> commiters, but does not committ itself?.

Not really, the PMC is comprised of commiters, and is attempting to expand
to include *all* comitters.

> ASF is still very small, $100K in the bank. It's committer volunters and
> users that use it.
> No need for a rulling class, what's wrong with peers?

This is exactly what is intended and being sought.

> Some officers rotated in for admin.
> If commiters don't get active to make it better, it will get worse.
> People I know are active in CVS (via CVS posts I see) have said very
> little relative to people I never see in CVS.

Well, that is entierly up to those people, no one expects that a commiter
must concern themselves with the running of the project, those that do are
eligible for the PMC.

> Ex: "germaine" issue, why no public vote of any kind on it ever, else
> link it for me.  I think once "germaine" is addressed, things go back to
> normal. None of this : we are not smart enough to understand. This is
> the only issue that is secret, AFAIK.

Once again let me remind you, the Geromino project (which I infer your
refrence to be to) is a project of the Apache Incubator PMC.
not be involved in the incubator, but incubator business is not carried out


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