----- Original message ---------------------------------------->
From: Stephen Colebourne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:16:26 +0000
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were  (draft 2)

>> Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities, the report would
>> have to be prepared by a PMC member, ideally one directly involved with
>> subproject. (A likely suspect being the DEV list moderator.)

>Er, doesn't this just emphasize how broken this process is?

Not that I see. It formalizes what should have been done from the beginning.

We tried to do it before, but we then run into the politics of whether the person 
making the report is the PMC "representative" to the subproject.

The fundamental disconnect is that all of the committers should be on the PMC, because 
all of the committers are the decision-makers for one or more of our various products.

>> [snip]
>> Work regarding a specific subproject can continue to occur on that
>> subproject's DEV list. PMC members (aka committers) following that list
>> can vote on its releases and other day-to-day affairs. So long as the
>> minimum quorum is met, the vote is legal and binding.

>So, we are trying to delegate power to subprojects? Er, but we can't now can

No. We are instituting a "minimum threshold meritocracy" for each product. The PMC 
members/committers who are working on a product, and interested in its development, 
and the ones who make the decisions about that product. That's how it works now 
socially, and that's how it should work legally.

>So who can vote? 'Following the list' is a very vague term. Presumably I can
>simply subscribe to struts-dev and then vote, never having even used struts?
>It also seems highly dubious to say that a vote is legal and binding if most
>of the PMC never knew the vote occurred.

As it stands today, any of the current PMC members could do exactly that.

And, this is also how it works in the Commons today. If I want to chime in on a 
product and start committing, other volunteers are happy for the help.

If you did subscribe to the Struts list and took an interest in the product, I'm sure 
we'd welcome your commits. You're an Apache Committer, and I'm sure you've earned your 
stripe. Not by trying to do harm, but by trying to do good.

The value of administrative [vote]s on the DEV list are often overrated. A veto must 
have technical merit to be binding. Malicious vetos are not valid. And, as you know, 
when someone tried to enforce their own will over the will of the community, the 
ultimate result (sadly) was a suspension of write access.

>> Under proposition (1), the significant events occurring for each
>> subproject would be reported to the PMC list, for the review of the PMC
>> at-large.

>So the PMC is reviewing events already happened, not actively managing. Er,
>sounds like the relationship between the board and a PMC to me.

No, the committers to each subproject are committee members. Most Apache projects 
practice a minimum threshold meritocracy. We don't expect every committer to be 
involved in every decision, or cast votes or opinion outside their area of interest or 
expertise. If three committers/members vote +1, we're good to go.

The PMC was not meant to be a legislative body: it's suppose to be the core group, the 
decision-makers, the active managers, the committers.

>> PMC membership is voluntary. Anyone can resign from the PMC at any
>> time. If a volunteer would like to be a committer, but not a PMC member,
>> then each subproject can then decide whether to support separate
>> committer and PMC member roles or not.

>I would suggest that there is nothing in this proposal that will cause the
>board members to have any more faith in Jakarta than they do now. And thats
>because it changes nothing of significance.

It changes everything. It turns Jakarta from a place that is supposedly governed by an 
"other wordly elite" to a place that practice "minimum threshold meritocracy" -- both 
socially and legally. Today our social order is out-of-synch with our legal status. 
This proposal legalizes what already happens in practice.

* It provides a forum where ALL the decision makers can discuss oversight (not just a 
chosen few).


* It puts reporting in the lap of the decision-makers for each product, which ensures 
it stays on the *decision-makers* radar, and is not pushed up to some body that cannot 
possible oversee our products.


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