On Thu, 2005-08-04 at 11:48 -0400, Eric Brown wrote: > Every business application of Gentoo I've done has been different. I don't > think I could generalize my needs into a single ebuild. Although generally I > have used rsyncd and apache, I never use them in the same way. What's so > hard about using the default rsyncd config, and adding distfiles to your > apache document root? (what 90% of people would use).
You completely missed the management aspect here. I'm talking about some form of actual enterprise-ready management framework for controlling a set of Gentoo servers centrally from deployment to maintenance and upgrades. > About automating updates and etc-update: you can rsync your config file > sometimes and just bypass all of the portage stuff. You could mount some > config dirs over nfs even. You could even remove config_protect on some dirs > and roll your own custom packages. You can... You can... You can... All I heard here was a bunch of excuses about how a person can take the time to implement something that's been implemented by countless other people, because Gentoo does not provide a framework for doing this. The whole idea of being enterprise-ready is having a drop-in solution that works right off the bat, with minimal to no configuration for basic services. All of your solutions requires manpower to accomplish that not every enterprise can afford to spend. Once again, this is why Gentoo is currently not used in these situations. > About a slower moving portage tree for enterprise users: Great idea, I think > there's a GLEP about that. I think it's best handled by third parties who > can spend the money/man power on that kind of QA. Yes, there is a GLEP about this. This is also the first step to being able to provide any level of enterprise-readiness. You simply cannot tell someone to upgrade glibc to some new version if something is wrong with the current one. They want a patch for the current one. Think bug-fixes only with absolutely zero new features between whatever form of releases are created. > This brings me to your last point about calling someone when there are > problems: There are companies that provide Linux services, even Gentoo > specific services. Some of these companies might even provide > enterprise-grade portage mirrors with support for the packages they maintain > there. I don't think I would stake my company's infrastructure on the reliance on Bob and Joe's Gentoo Support Hotline, sorry. Not to mention you haven't actually given a single example of someone who can provide this level of enterprise support. There's a reason why you haven't given an example. None exists. > I'm sorry, I never ran 1000 Gentoo machines in production like that, I > thought enterprise meant this (answers.com): > > en·ter·prise (ĕn'tər-prīz') pronunciation > n. > > 1. An undertaking, especially one of some scope, complication, and risk. > 2. A business organization. > 3. Industrious, systematic activity, especially when directed toward > profit: Private enterprise is basic to capitalism. > 4. Willingness to undertake new ventures; initiative: “Through want of > enterprise and faith men are where they are, buying and selling, and spending > their lives like serfs” (Henry David Thoreau). Wow. A dictionary definition that is completely out of context and doesn't account for the word enterprise being used as a technical representation. I've got a few "enterprise" definitions for you, too. The Enterprise type is a two-man hiking sailing dinghy with a distinctive blue sail and no spinnaker. Despite being one of the older classes of dinghies, it remains popular and well used for both cruising and racing. It has a combination of stability, size and power which contiues to appeal to all ages, and to sailing schools. ...or... Star Trek: Enterprise is a science fiction television series set in the Star Trek universe.(Until the third season its title was simply Enterprise, and it is often abbreviated as ST:ENT or ENT).The series follows the adventures of the crew of the Enterprise (NX-01), the first human interstellar ship that can achieve Warp 5.Enterprise premiered in the United States on September 26, 2001, and is presently in its fourth, and final, season. ...though the one I am looking for, and the one that fits the scope of this conversation is this one: In the computer industry, an enterprise is an organization that uses computers. In practice, the term is applied much more often to larger organizations than smaller ones. We are using this in practice. Therefore, we are speaking of large organizations, and not just *any* organization. > Doesn't this just go to show that in business, everyone wants something > different from Gentoo? What does Novell offer to manage large numbers of > linux boxen? Are you sure projects like OpenMosix don't have tools you could > use to manage such a large number of machines? Not really. It does go to show that you'll go to great lengths to try to prove a point, even when you're grasping at straws. Everybody wanting something from Gentoo has zero to do with the single goal of providing an enterprise-ready version of Gentoo, which is the topic that we are discussing. Novell has several tools, that when used in combination, form a cohesive framework for deploying, managing, and upgrading systems. What's even better, is it isn't just limited to Linux, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the readers... ;] Novell uses a combination of these components, such as eDirectory and ZENworks, to form this framework. > Maybe we can't rely on portage so much in scenarios where replication is the > goal... Portage really has nothing to do with deployment or management. In fact, the only thing it really does is package management, which is probably why it is called a package management tool, and not an enterprise resource manager. > Of course, I'm sure you can't call Red Hat or Suse if you don't pay them some > way or another. If you don't pay, could you find such a supportive community > on IRC or in forums? (I think not) Of course not, nobody ever claimed that you could, nor implied it. Nobody has ever mentioned *anything* about our community, because it has exactly zero value in the enterprise, especially as a support medium. Try telling some upper manager that he needs to download an IRC client, then connect to irc.freenode.net, then join #gentoo and ask his question in the channel, along with all the other noise, then hope that someone answers his question. Try explaining to him that this is the standard form of support for your deployment, and watch as you get laughed out of the office and off to the unemployment line. > There are lots of Gentoo gurus who will gladly accept your money to help you > fix your problems =) Sorry, but I'm not calling vapier and listening to him tell me about his wang when I have an issue with LDAP replication that I need resolved immediately as my customers are starting to call in quite irate. I would want a company with a dedicated staff on-hand to support my needs that is available when I need them. > >I work for a telecommunications company, and we run Linux and Solaris. > >For our Linux, we run Red Hat, even though they have, on staff, one of > >the people that understands Gentoo's deployment capabilities better than > >most, via catalyst and the GLI. Why do we run Red Hat? When something > >breaks with one of their packages, we call them, and expect them to fix > >it. It is also a name that gives upper management the warm fuzzies. > >Gentoo has neither the brand recognition, nor the support capabilities > >to be a good sale to management. > > Sounds like FUD to me. Use what works for you though. If you managers > really need that big brand name with that 800 number, that's just how you'll > have to do it. Perhaps I've been lucky at the places I work where I am > simply responsible myself for keeping certain systems up, and that's that. Ooohh... FUD. Amazing how someone telling the truth is immediately labeled as FUD, especially when it goes against the misconceptions and bold-faced lies that someone that is a bit overzealous in his devotion is trying to push. My managers are normal managers, just like you would find all over the enterprise. They want to know about risks and costs, and are damn well and ready to pay for support if it means that their ass won't be on the line when something breaks. It is starting to sound to me that your idea of "enterprise" is "production" when the two are far different. Think of enterprise as an order of magnitude or more greater than production. If you're thinking 10 servers, think 100, or 1000. > I wouldn't refute my manager's claims if he controlled my paycheck :D Haven't you ever been in a meeting? You know, where they ask your opinion. Are you a drone? Do you just do everything that you're told and question nothing? If so, then you're *perfect* for a middle manager position in any large enterprise corporation. Start puckering your lips now, it's a position you'll get used to quite quickly. For the rest of us out here, we actually give our managers our opinions, and when we're trying to use a product, we fight for it. > But in my professional opinion, as someone who has had to manage up to 10 > Linux servers at a time, Gentoo was by far the best choice. That's what I'd > say to my manager if he ever asked me why I want to use Gentoo. I don't mean to offend you, but 10 servers is nothing like an enterprise deployment. I have more than 10 servers at my house, and I surely don't consider that any kind of enterprise. Instead, think about managing 1000 geographically dispersed servers. This is more the scale that we're talking about, not the local Baptist church's IT needs. Gentoo is currently unmaintainable at this scale without a significant investment in infrastructure and development to make the system manageable. Think of it this way, if I can pay 4 developers to work on this project for 6 months, and each developer makes $50,000 a year, or I can pay Novell $100,000 and have the system in place in 2 weeks, which do you think I would do? This is the exact reason why Gentoo is not used in the enterprise more. There is simply too high a barrier of entry into making a usable and manageable Gentoo deployment. > Ever consider founding a company that specializes in Enterprise Gentoo > deployment and support? It sounds like there could be quite a demand for > such services :) Yeah, I considered it. Then I came down from the acid trip and realized how hateful it would be. I'm sorry, but I definitely don't want to spend my time being restricted to working only on the problems that some large corporation deemed was important to them, being harassed and stressed to meet their deadlines. I work on Gentoo because I enjoy it, not because I gain from it financially. I have no problem adding enterprise features or improving enterprise support, but I get enough stress at my day job, why should I get even more from my hobby? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager Games - Developer Gentoo Linux
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