On 08/07/2016 02:38 AM, Consus wrote:
On 08:48 Sun 07 Aug, Michał Górny wrote:
Sure we do. In the meantime, nobody uses gentoo anymore because it
still can't deal with accepting contributions and in the meantime the
few last developers retired, and users long ago switched to the
comparatively recent distribution of Debian stable.
Finally the voice of reason.
Reasonable? Are you kidding?
<rolling on the floor with laughter, uncontrollably >
In this day and age, quick installs are the mantra, either for VMs or
containers or workstations, particularly for
application-specific-servers or a variety of security apparatus.
Although the 'handbook' is an excellent reference guide and noob-filter,
the simple fact of the matter is most (nix) professionals consider the
gentoo install system to be arcane and an incredible 'cost barrier to
entry'. THAT, the lack of a well thought out, smooth, quick/easy install
which is intentionally not available, because it is seen as a satanic
idea, is the 800 pound gorilla on why folks passionately avoid gentoo.....
As a team, we could have a simple default program for a simple default
disk format, and a variety of 'stage-4' images, maybe updated every 3
months, to get a gentoo system up, quickly. Not an anything you want it
to be, but a few, common choices. Perhaps a security apparatus, commonly
needed, built on the hardened project? (like a bridge or a firewall)?
Then index the noob questions received from the jentoo-users ML, into
the handbook or companion documents, in a hyperlinked FAQ. Folks could
then work the question/support board of jentoo-user before being
accepted into jproxy-maint. JProxy-maint would then need to become a
collection of docs to read, a half dozen ebuilds to update and then
bang, junior-dev status where folks can work on non-critical parts of
the jentoo tree. And there could be a 'bypass exam' that if you know
the basics of *nix and shell, you could jump straight into contributing
on jentoo. Or better yet:: (Fork the tree for the jproxy-maint and
junior-devs to run themselves. That fork could be limited to a few
security appliance(s) system, and an embedded jentoo system (rasp. pi)
and a firewall/bridge. Let them use java* codes, as that is what all the
universities are teaching and promoting. I agree with gentoo proper on
severely restricting java*, on gentoo-proper, but that sort of thing is
killing gentoo and just appears to the open world as a filter mechanism
to keep out and go elsewhere, snoot. There are just too many exciting
and useful codes out there running java.
After 12 years of using gentoo, the gentoo install semantics, still are
abysmal, imho. I just fundamentally disagree with forcing folks to first
endure the handbook before getting any gentoo (working gentoo system)
gratification. That is why 'Debian/buntu' has market share over us. Here
is a very useful "canned" install that, if emulated, would give gentoo
reams of "kudos" or "atta-boys" should we publish (provide) something
like this.[1]
[1] http://blog.securityonion.net/
"Security Onion is a Linux distro for intrusion detection, network
security monitoring, and log management. It's based on Ubuntu and
contains Snort, Suricata, Bro, OSSEC, Sguil, Squert, ELSA, Xplico,
NetworkMiner, and many other security tools. The easy-to-use Setup
wizard allows you to build an army of distributed sensors for your
enterprise in minutes!"
We could even call it "jentoo", as it could be labeled to indicate it
is for junior developers to experiment, learn, grow and then become a
fleeting-gentoo-dev found @ gentoo-dev proper. And yes enjoy the latest
of from the (insecure) java world.
Restated:: the current (lack) of a slick, simple & quick install
semantic, is what's killing gentoo, if it is dying. What I run into are
reams of deeply accomplished technical folks that use gentoo regularly
and like the current filters that run off the less astute, imho. YMMV.
Most all other rolling distros have a much simpler installation
semantic, if not a variety of easy install options and ways to participate.
Perhaps a well defined OS model, where gentoo can run (secure) VMs or
containers from jentoo? That would expand the model of usage and
encourage inclusion, provide a pathway to the ultimate gentoo-dev status
and encourage innovation (and failure) all in a secure model?
Heaven forbid that we put up a few dozen (unsupported) jentoo VMs,
container-images or stage-4 (specifically purposed) choices where
folks could only get support from jentoo-user. No sir, we cannot make
jentoo fun and enjoyable and quick (and sleazy) can we?
And yes allow java, the way it is available on most other distros...
The current process of requiring all the java codes to be broken down
into 100% discernable codes is a tremendous barrier. After all, most of
the codes that use that stuff, are full of holes anyway; that's the very
nature of open, fast, exciting new codes. They only become secure
after years of vetting (fuzzing) anyway. So make the host gentoo image
very secure and allow jentoo projects to be a VM, or container or such
construct, without all the hassles of gentoo proper. Let the purist
ensure that gentoo is secure and isolated and let the multitude play
with java, however they like (in a VM, or a container image or a stage-4).
You have to look at CoreOS and conclude that even folks with deep
expertise and deep pockets want an easy install (even roll-back) OS.
hth,
James
