Karl-Heinz Zimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Freitag, 15. August 2003 14:06, Eric Livingston wrote:
>> > > how can you say that, i mean you use a product in free software
>> > > comunity and you don't care about what is done with the money they
>> > > earn !! this is unresponsable
>> >
>> > As I see it, money is not the issue. As long as the software is free
>> > and the quality of the software high, I'm willing to donate money to
>> > show my support.
>>
>> Interesting sentiment. So, if Gentoo were to post on their front page
>> that they were full, enthusiastic supporters of terrorism, had in fact
>> helped to fund the 9/11 attacks, and were now in the process of
>> pulling money together to help fund a nuclear attack on NYC, you'd
>> just merrily keep sending them donations because the "quality of the
>> software is high"? Strange...
>>
>> Or
> [more samples...]
>
> IM(humble)O you are both right and wrong:
>
> * right, because it might lead to unwanted use of my money if I am
> not asking what it is spent for before I make a donnation
>
> * wrong, because if you START making such questions, you will end
> in a world where Free Software delevopers have to demonstrate
> politically rightness before being supported by their users...
>
> I don't like the idea of my money wandering to some obscure place
> - but at the same time
<snip>
Here is the issue, Gentoo is actually:
* Gentoo Technologies, Inc.
The above reference to an 'Incorporation', which by definition means
the following:
<snip>
4. (Law)
(a) The act of creating a corporation.
(b) A body incorporated; a corporation.
5. To form into a legal body, or body politic; to constitute
into a corporation recognized by law, with special
functions, rights, duties and liabilities; as, to
incorporate a bank, a railroad company, a city or town,
etc.
>From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
Incorporated \In*cor"po*ra`ted\, a.
United in one body; formed into a corporation; made a legal
entity.
Source: dict incorporated
There are three major organizational forms a business may have:
* sole proprietorship
* partnership
* corporation
By the above definition, Gentoo Technologies, Inc. falls into a
'corporation':
Corporation \Cor`po*ra"tion\ (k[^o]r`p[-o]*r[=a]"sh[u^]n), n.
[L. corporatio incarnation: cf. F. corporation corporation.]
A body politic or corporate, formed and authorized by law to
act as a single person, and endowed by law with the capacity
of succession; a society having the capacity of transacting
business as an individual.
Note: Corporations are aggregate or sole. {Corporations
aggregate} consist of two or more persons united in a
society, which is preserved by a succession of members,
either forever or till the corporation is dissolved by
the power that formed it, by the death of all its
members, by surrender of its charter or franchises, or
by forfeiture. Such corporations are the mayor and
aldermen of cities, the head and fellows of a college,
the dean and chapter of a cathedral church, the
stockholders of a bank or insurance company, etc. A
{corporation sole} consists of a single person, who is
made a body corporate and politic, in order to give him
<snip>
>From THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911 Released April 15 1993) [devils]:
CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit
without individual responsibility.
Source: dict corporation
*notice the Devil's Dictionary definition above*
Now, since Gentoo Technologies, Inc. is a for-profit-corporation which
is (or should be) legally registered in some state / city, there are a
few steps a corporation should follow to insure investors, creditors
and interested users peace of mind and complete knowledge of how the
for-profit-corporation is using it's (*our*) money, how assets are
being used within the company and what operating expenses are incurred
while conducting business as a *for profit* entity.
I dont understand why everyone gets so upset when Gentoo Users ask for
financial statements, which should be public information to anyone who
requests such information. This is where my confusion has been, hence,
my lack of posting for quite a few months. How could Mr. Robbins have
so much power, if a corporation is just that: a body consisting of
investors who have shares or stock indicating their ownership in said
*for-profit-corporation*?
>From THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911 Released April 15 1993) [devils]:
CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit
without individual responsibility.
I seriously dont care either way, but I dont understand why people are
told to *"SHUT UP"* when they ask for financial statements, which
should be publicly available by any healthy or non-healthy
for-profit-corporation, *unless the corporation has something to
hide, or has problems in their financial statements*. The sad thing is
people who are asking for financial information are more than willing
to donate and contribute money into Gentoo Technologies, Inc., so what
is the problem? See, a for-profit-corporation means Mr. Robbins has no
personal liability if GTI goes up or down financially, so:
* Who are the other people / investors who own stock in Gentoo
Technologies, Inc.?
* Is Gentoo Technologies, Inc. an actual sole-proprietorship,
or is it a partnership?
* Who is Gentoo Technologies, Inc.?
These are simple questions which should be public information readily
available for any and all contributors of time (*developers*) and
money (*users*).
>From THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911 Released April 15 1993) [devils]:
CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit
without individual responsibility.
If you go onto:
* http://www.google.com/
and type *any* major incorporated business, along with the words:
* +financial +statements
For example, type the following into google.com:
* +suse +financial +statements
* +redhat + financial +statements
* +ibm +financial +statements
* +inc. +financial +statements
* +nameofanycorporationyouwant +financial +statements
you will obtain the following information on *thousands* of
incorporated organizations:
* Income Statement
* Retained Earning Statement
* Balance Sheet
* Statement of Cash Flows
* Auditors Report
in either an Annual, Bi-Annual, Tri or Quarterly financial
report. Why is Gentoo Technologies, Inc. any different, and why is
everyone getting so uptight when people ask for financial information,
which should be available to any external user wishing to use the
information to make their decision on buying, keeping, using, selling
or donating money and or investing into a corporation we know as
Gentoo Technologies, Inc.?
The above information is crucial, as not only are Gentoo Users
'external users', but these 'external users' also include the Internal
Revenue Service and other agencies wishing to know Gentoo
Technologies, Inc. is complying with tax laws and is operating within
established rules which allow a corporation to do business in the US,
and worldwide! I dont think the request of Financial Statements is out
of the question, and in fact should be viewed as a blessing so Gentoo
Technologies, Inc. flourishes and continues strong into the future.
I'm sure Gentoo Technologies, Inc. (GTI) is registered and is a valid
legal entity, so if this is the case, what would happen if GTI was
audited or investigated by the taxing authorities or other external
users and the above information was not available? We, the users would
suffer as our Linux Distribution of choice would fade away in
disaster.
Now, type the following into http://www.google.com/
* +gentoo +financial +statements
Notice a difference?
# Copyright 1999-2003 Gentoo Technologies, Inc.
The above was copy and pasted from an e-build contained within
'/usr/portage/' which leads me to believe GTI has been a corporation
since 1999, so why is the above information not available? This is
*four* years we are talking about, not a few weeks or months.
The above financial statements are crucial to any business which wants
to succeed and go strong into the future, so why is everyone getting
so uptight when requests are made for such information? See, when
people donate money into a corporation, it is our *legal* right *by*
*law* as contributors of an asset to see were our money is going - be
it into financing, investing or operating activities which are normal
day-to-day activities any healthy business partakes of on a daily
basis.
I'm going to assume Gentoo Technologies, Inc. uses the accounting
information systems model to keep track of their business activities
(financing, investing, operating), so why is the information not
provided to someone who wishes to donate $1.00 or $1,000,000.
Shouldn't *every* external user wishing to donate $0.01 be provided
the same financial information as another investor / donator wishing
to donate / invest $1,000,000 into a corporation? What makes Gentoo
Technologies, Inc. different?
Full Disclosure of outstanding debts, lawsuits, and any and all
circumstances and events which might affect the future of Gentoo
Technologies, Inc. should be disclosed in the above Financial
Statements, or be discussed in notes accompanying the above statements
*for the well being of Gentoo Linux!*
SUSE, Redhat and even Microsoft have Financial Statements readily
available for internal / external users such as you, me and developers
who contribute *countless* hours, time and energy into *for* *profit*
Linux Distributions and MS shareholders, so why not Gentoo
Technologies, Inc?
Remember, Gentoo Technologies, Inc. wouldnt be as popular as it is
*today* without developers who contribute countless hours, time and
energy and us guinea pigs who test out their efforts, so the above
information could be valuable not only for us interested users, but to
any and all past, present or future developers which might consider
using their precious resource ( *time* ) towards Gentoo Technologies,
Inc.
How *is* our money being invested? If I were to donate $100.00 into
GTI, I would hope each and every developer who puts their time and
energy into the project see a piece of the pie, since this is a
*for-profit-corporation*. Are some developers getting money and not
others? Are there some people who get paid and not others? Where *is*
our money going, and who sees the fruits of *our* and *developers*
labors? I wouldnt say any of this if Gentoo was a non-profit
organization (financial statements wouldnt even be an issue), but GTI
is a *for-profit-organization* and should follow the path it chose of
a *for profit* business which fully discloses all financial data for
all to see.
I understand *Gentoo* was Daniel's idea and is his baby, but he pretty
much gave up everything he invested when he made Gentoo into an
incorporated venture, so any and all expenses he might have in his
personal life should be kept there - in his personal life, and any and
all revenue being generated by Gentoo Technologies, Inc. should go
towards just that - GTI and *not* towards Daniel. A single entity is
just that - single, which means no children, wife or dependents.
I happily contribute money to local private not-for-profit parrot
rescues, because I know my money is going towards cages, food and
shelter for these birds, and not towards the *inventor* or *creator*
of the rescue. I contribute money towards local community choirs and
events, because I can see how my money is being used, and I know it
isn't going towards the director of said events, plus detailed
financial reports are made available to me if I ever so wish to see
how my money is being used.
Contributing / Donating money which goes to one person is just like
giving a vagrant on the stret money, and I'm just not into doing such
things. You need food? You need clothing? You need a car? You need
shoes? Hell, I need those things too! I dont think a lot of people are
going to donate much $$$ until some of their fears and questions are
addressed. From what it seems, if I "contribute" money towards a
corporation, I should be given stock or shares in return, since the
company is going to profit from my contribution. If I contribute $$$
into Redhat, I get a share - why is GTI any different if they want to
follow the same business model?
See, the nature of *Linux*, *GNU* and *Open-Source* software makes
many of us think almost all distributions are non-profit, so it was
kind of a shock to many of us when we found out Gentoo was
*for-profit*, and in fact was kind of kept a secret from what it
seems. How many users who contributed in the past contributed /
donated thinking Gentoo was a *non-profit* organization? I'm willing
to bet *many* people contributed under this assumption, and many still
do till this day.
I know I only found out about Gentoo's *for-profit* status from DR's
post a few months ago, so I know I was kind of confused @ first,
because it's commercial status was so 'secretive'. gentoo.org should
seriously make this *clear* to anyone wishing to contribute / donate
money. Not to mention the *.org makes one think it's a non-profit
organization, but thats another story. It seems quite clear gentoo.com
is being pointed towards gentoo.org, so why not try and obtain
gentoo.com, or at least offer the owner of the domain stock in GTI in
trade for the domain, as it would make it quite clear as to the nature
of GTI, and it's intent for profit.
It would kind of be like me standing in front of a salvation army /
goodwill with a can saying donations / contributions without saying my
intent is really to pocket the money or to help out my business, and
money not actually going towards the salvation army or goodwill. Just
by me standing in front of either store, a lot of people would assume
I was asking for donations / contributions for either store. Just
because I give items to the salvation army / goodwill every 6 months
doesnt mean it gives me the right to stand in front of either store
and pretend i'm asking for donations / contributions towards a *good
cause*. I understand everyone needs to eat and make a living, but make
your intentions clear and up front, and dont stand silent in front of
*Linux* *GNU* *Open-Source* which make people think otherwise. You
want to profit from your hard work? FINE! Make it clear and put it in
the open for all to see, and give people shares of stock in return
for their investments.
*HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULDNT CONTRIBUTE $$$$$$$$$ IF THEY COULD OWN SHARES
OF GENTOO STOCK?*
* I know I would.
and I'm sure I'm not alone in this way of thinking! Stock are just
that - an investment that can either go bad or go good, so why not
take everyone up with you, instead of just yourself, considering
you've chosen a business model which should provide stock as a means
of generating revenue and assets.
The above would also alleviate rumors of Mr. Robins being a dictator
and does what *he* wants, because everyone who owns shares of GTI
would have a say as to what happens to the future of said
incorporation, and would have a say as to changes being made to
GTI. This is a Linux Distribution, not the Linux Kernel itself.
I'm more than willing to bet you would get MUCH more $$$ if you
provided such options, and disclosed financial statements.
This thread is just plain *drama*, but it's drama which could of been
avoided (AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED) if the entity known as GTI had
public financial statements to begin with like *any* honest and on the
up-and-up *for-profit-organization* which wants to keep it's users and
potential investors well informed as to the status of the
business. This isn't to say GTI isn't honest and on the up-and-up, but
it makes one wonder why these statements have not been made public by
an incorporated venture. The sad thing is Gentoo cant even be called a
project, because it's a business. You cant expect people to treat it
as a project when it is nothing other than a business made to generate
revenue from it's users, and from what it seems - made to generate
revenue, profits and assets to one person.
If *anyone* (including DR) needs money from GTI's dedicated account,
the transaction should fully disclose how much is requires from a
separate account dedicated to GTI, and we should be able to view any
and all changes of assets (cash) through financial statements /
journal entries. If someone needs money from the GTI account, it
should be well noted as to who debited (with the consent from all
parties which make up the GTI entity) from the account and should be
taken from their total shares or claim. If the amount is given as a
dividend, then all parties involved which hold a piece of GTI should
also be payed their share of profits, because a business is just that
- a business. It must be treated as a money making venture, and
everyone involved should be fully aware as to where money is going, so
as to make a decision on how to contribute towards a
for-profit-corporation.
What would happen if the inventor(s) of Redhat just felt like pulling
out $2,000,000 out of Redhat's business account just because they can?
Who would even know the above happened unless detailed financial
statements were provided on a quarterly * * annual basis? Bottom line
- $1.00 or $1,000,000 is no different when it comes to business
(separate entity), because each one is an asset which needs to be
clearly marked as to its whereabouts, otherwise, something is
wrong. It's like me borrowing your ATM card and borrowing money from
you - a separate legal entity. Just because I have access to your ATM
card and you've given me your PIN # doesnt give me the right to pull
out money as I wish, as I have to inquire with *YOU* first, and in the
case of a business entity - everyone involved in making the entity
happen through contributions (time / energy / man-hours) or owning a
piece of the pie.
The sour / bitter impression received from prior posts related to this
subject, and unfortunately the above (God I hope these are
misconceptions on my part) thoughts by my part have not been cleared
due to a lack of a solid "here are financial statements for Gentoo
Technologies, Inc. which do not include Daniel Robbins financial
history, as Gentoo and DR are two separate entities" professional and
business oriented type of answer. I dont care what someone's personal
debts are (as were provided by DR a few months ago in rebuttal towards
Z. Welch's accusations), as they mean *jack* when you decide to
incorporate, as you have no personal liability. I only care what GTI
is doing, and personal information *from any legal entity other than
GTI* shouldnt even be a topic when discussing the financial status of
GTI, unless of course GTI is a sole-proprietorship. Why did DR
disclose his own personal financial status, when he is a completely
separate entity from Gentoo Technologies, Inc.? Is this a sole
proprietorship? If not, DR's personal financial information has no
business in a response about GTI's financial status (statements).
Being a legal entity means GTI is just like you and me - one (single)
person. It means GTI is as distinguishable as Daniel Robbins, Louis
Candell, Karl Zimmer, Matthias F. Brandstetter, Michael Jackson, IBM,
Redhat, SUSE, Mc Donalds, etc. What *YOU* make has no influence on my
income tax statement, unless of course you've given me $$$ and you
claim to have given me said money, and I claim to have received it and
wish to pay taxes and do things legally. A corporation, involves more
than one person acting as a single body, so just because *someone*
needs money and has access to the business's account doesnt mean they
can just go and take the money and replace it later (they can, but
it's *bad* business and you would more than likely regret doing
business with any company using such practices), because it takes
*everyone* involved to make the entity's agreement, otherwise, the
business model which was chosen is being broken and is just a sign of
things going wrong in the future, and I wish nothing but good things
towards Gentoo Linux. Just imagine GTI's money being pulled out to go
gamble @ Las Vegas, and let's just say it was lost or stolen. What
then? What would happen to GTI if this above scenario played out? If I
give $1,000 to my mother, I want to see how, when and where it was
used and how it was used, not be clouded by mystery as to how my money
was used. Why should GTI be any different?
In conclusion, I would like to state my upmost satisfaction with
Gentoo as a Linux Distribution, and have even dropped using FreeBSD
for Gentoo, so please understand that I'm not against anything which
might generate Gentoo Technologies, Inc. any and all revenue, but the
above information is crucial to any business who wishes to strive and
continue strong into the future with die-hard users and a steady
stream of *developers* wishing to contribute their time and energy
into any product or distribution which generates profits.
I just typed a bible, so please excuse my mistakes as I'm not about to
re-read what I typed.
Thanks for your time.
--
Louis C. Candell
--
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