On 4 June 2011, at 12:35, Indi wrote: >> ... >> Last time I used Linux on the desktop (in ernest) I had some dreadful >> problems with KDE crashing or failing to open under certain circumstances, >> which I found frustrating and impossible to overcome. That was several years >> ago, and no-one on the mailing list or Usenet group I tried was able to >> help; I don't think I knew at the time to try the KDE mailing list. > > That's not a problem with Linux, it's a problem with kde.
You're right. I should have said "last time I used a Free Software desktop system in earnest." > That's once of the reasons I strongly dislike kde4 BTW -- with kde3 most > windows users were impressed and easily switched. As you found (and as we see > daily on this list), kde4 has yet to achieve that level of carefree stability. I'm afraid I didn't find that at all, sir. This would have been KDE 2, I would guess from the date (c 2001, Mandrake, c v8). > People whose first experience with *nix involves kde4 … And then I tried Irix for a while. Maybe a year or so. >> Currently the biggest thing holding me back from giving Linux another good >> chance to prove itself to me is basically that Mac OS X is "good enough" for >> me. > > Low standards, or perhaps you just value "other things"? I find something slightly insulting about your reference to my "standards", and I'm having a little trouble articulating quite why. I don't know, maybe it's because I'm used to a person having "low standards" when his girlfriend is dumb, fat or ugly. "That guy has some low standards, man", "Did you see the face on her?", "Blimey! What about her arse?" And this is pretty ridiculous, because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You clearly wouldn't tolerate using a Mac for even a few weeks - I doubt even a day - so how can you know what it's really like to work with? It's impossible for either of us to know which is the "better" operating system, without committing several weeks to the project. If you're prepared to do that, then maybe we can arrange a proper comparison. Let me know when your iMac arrives and tell me what window manager you suggest. > Does Apple Mail give you the option of wrapping text at a sensible > number of characters? Perhaps it's just your settings... My client wraps lines at a perfectly sensible length. http://linux.stroller.uk.eu.org/Email%20Line%20Wrapping.png >> One concern about using Linux on the desktop is that I don't think the apps >> will be as good or as polished as the ones I use currently > > Never understood the obsession with "polish". > Either it works properly or it doesn't. There's a difference between "functional" and "working well". To me, this is all about getting things done. Quickly and efficiently. > Apparently Apple doesn't give a rat's behind about accessibility issues. Sorry, I don't know anything about accessibility. >> Another is that (I believe) gestures are not supported in present window >> managers - presently I can pinch outwards with two fingers to zoom in on an >> image, or I can swipe with 4 fingers to show an overview of my virtual >> desktops and open windows. Spreading all 5 fingers shows me the desktop. So >> I don't like mice, and I was getting pissed off with cleaning my trackball >> on a daily basis (the ball kinda gets all clogged and slow) … it's hard to >> find a device with as many buttons as I can make trackpad gestures. > > You have a keyboard, why the need to "pinch" something? :) Seriously? You don't have a mouse? Because there are a lot of other people here you could be discussing this with before starting on one of my comments and making this about operating-systems and window managers. We have keyboard shortcuts because sometimes it's quicker not to have to reach for the mouse. Likewise mice have, in recent years, sprouted additional buttons because sometimes it's easier to use one of those than to reach for the keyboard. In some ways multitouch trackpad gestures are simply a whole load more buttons than you have room for on a single mouse. But they are also one of those things that once you "get" them, you'll never go back. A bit like `screen` (or `tmux`) or using the command-line in general (or digital communication or lots of other great examples that sprung to mind easily before I got distracted, and which I can now no longer recollect). I can't blame you at all for being sceptical, because they definitely don't click immediately, but stick with them a few frustrating days (I did only because my 5 year old desktop died and I was forced to rely on my laptop for a while), and pretty soon you'll be asking yourself "how did I live without this?" (and perhaps more to the point: "how would I live without this?"). >> Nevertheless, there are some things I agree are absolutely shit about OS X. > > Yes, like FINDER (actually makes windows explorer look almost reasonable), You know, Finder is not as bad as you would imagine. As Alan says - it works exactly how Steve thinks it should work. I can imagine it is absolutely rubbish if you're forced to use it for only a few minutes at a time. It's been so long since I started using OS X that I can't really remember how it was at first, but I assuredly felt that way about Classic (to MacOS 9). But what I do remember from my first days of OS X is that after a couple of weeks I got used to it - I have been perfectly happy ever after. I absolutely agree with you that software should *not* force you to do things its way (the software should do things *your* way) and, personally, I do think that Windows Explorer or KDE are better. Having a tree view on the left hand-side of the file-system navigator makes life a lot easier; I prefer emphasis on right-clicking, and feel that Finder leaves a lot to be desired in this respect; Finder's viewing and sorting options are shitty. But you know what? It really doesn't make much difference. Once you get used to doing it Steve's way it doesn't take any longer. I can walk out of the store with a new Mac tomorrow (or do a fresh install on this one), double-click on the iChat icon and enter my AIM screenname and password - video conferencing will work immediately. Within 5 minutes of opening the box I can be chatting with my mum in Australia, and I can just click again to invite my sister to the group. Let's compare that with Meino Cramer's experience. He first posted here about webcams on the 25th July 2009. He was "still having problems" when he posted at 9pm yesterday. (As an aside: I should make a screencast showing how effortlessly I found that information; the search here is great.) If buying a Mac saves me only 2 days of messing about trying to get a webcam working, then it has paid for itself. I mean that in terms of the compromises I'm prepared to make: I'm plenty happy to take a second longer navigating to a folder to drag and drop a file if I never have to care what driver I need for my webcam or wifi card, if I never have to `make menuconfig` and wait for it to compile. The Finder interface would have to be *really* contrived - it would take me an an awful lot of drags and drops at a couple of extra seconds a time - to make that a net loss. On my server? Sure, it can compile away, doing an `emerge -u world` and a revdep-rebuild to its heart's content. But on my desktop I don't want to be interrupted by that - I'm interacting with it all the time and every minute of maintenance is a minute I'm not surfing the web, chatting or engaging in petty disagreements ;) on mailing lists. Finder is shit? All I'm doing is dragging some files from my SD card into a folder called "Photos". How bad can it be? > The Mac Defender fiasco is the beginning of the end. > A similar thing happened with the original Mac OS, and within two years > there were hundred of malware instances just like windows. You know, you might be right. If we could see the future, we would all be dot-com millionaires. 10.3 and 10.4 were great releases, IMO. Each release of OS X since, I have thought "this looks a bit shit, what's Steve going to mess up for me this time?" Each time since I've contemplated switching to Linux and, so far, each time the butchery hasn't been as bad as I've feared. Each time some nice improvements have been made that I've been pleased with. I've been lucky 3 times now, I don't imagine this will go on forever. Linux will surely be the first o/s I'll try when OS X no longer meets my needs. And the readers of this list will probably be the first to hear about it. I've got nothing to hide here, nothing to boast about. If you could prove to me that Linux would be a better desktop experience than OS X, then I'd be grateful to you for your help. But I don't see that you can. You can't prove it with a few screenshots or even with a video. I don't think you're trying with your words, because you're not telling me all the great things about a Linux desktop, you're trying to shit on the interface that I use for several hours a day, every day. And I know about that better than you do. The only way this fantastic Linux desktop environment can be proven to me is by experiencing it, and I have no need to do that - I have a great workspace here on my Mac. Right now all you're doing is arguing and wasting my time - in fact the time I've spent replying to Volker and you, I could have installed a Linux desktop by now. Tell me "this is great", "that is great" and maybe I'll give it a go. Right now you're in a very poor position to convince me, because all your arguments are based on the platform that I know much, much better than you do. If someone posts again in the future saying "my Linux box isn't working, Macs are so crap" then I will pipe up and make appropriate corrections. Apart from that, you all get one response. This was yours. (I should have mentioned this in my reply to Volker, but he doesn't come here to listen to other peoples' opinions, so I gave up on him a long time ago). I'll defend my position, but I'm not going to get drawn into some dumb flamewar - if you want that, I suggest you put your foot down to 88mph and go argue vi vs. emacs. I use Linux every day, and I am devoted to it. Of course my Mac doesn't do everything a Linux box does! Nor does Linux do everything my Mac does; I know Linux well enough to be fairly confident of that. I don't live in a house with only one computer, though, and I doubt that you do, either. All I'm asking is that you keep an open mind, and that everybody not talk shit about things they don't know. Just because Volker helped his auntie with her computer does not make him an expert on Apple Macs. Are you telling me that I could sit down at a Linux desktop tomorrow and find my way around it as well as you can? Do you think I would find all the preferences you have set up just the way you like them? No, probably not. I would love to have a really *detailed* discussion about Linux desktop interface nuances with you - we might agree on many points - but it would take me 3 weeks before I could start having that conversation about a single window manager. Stroller.
