Hi All, I think that it was a good idea to split the group in two and post the more generic to former group and try keep the latter more focused. I think that sometimes there are comments from person to person and this probably generates some unnecessary text load. Let me suggest that when posting in either group, you first consider carefully if the issue is of interest to everybody or should it just be posted first to a particula person only. I have sent some of my comments first to individual or individuals and then (if others thought it is a worthwhile exercise for others to see), then it is always possible to forward the item to whole group as such (or when there is related discussion). Consider also clear title so that we may skip items over easier (as not everything is of interest to everyone). Well-titled items are also necessity as at later date it is possible to refer back to them when there are so many mails, it is quite nightmare to find right reference from some old e-mail message (as I haven't got a photographic memory as a gift to recall the items easily after half a year). May be we should have sort of titling in use like indexed headline titles, a bit like Dewey system, followed by date, and name of sender. I think these should help to get quickly to the right items and help to skip over material that is less useful for own interests. ---- However, I am also happy to see that the geoengineering group is active forum, that there is too much interest, rather than too little. Just think about this if you like Ken have come to regret that people are over-enthusiastically embracing to discuss over geoengineering group and vent their 'creatives': I am a member of Indianice google group that discusses complaints that the World Indigenous Nations Summit made to the United Nations' General Assembly on the issue of the Arctic marine and terrestrial ice having a strong coupling, i.e. that the loss of former leads also to sudden demise of the latter leading to sea surge, based on various 'unconventional' evidence at least from the western mindset. Athough it is amusing of seeing one group nations on the throats of the western group of nations on the issue how the last ice age came about and ended, it is also terrifying to think of that we might have a similar situation to Galileo Galilei when the leading universities refused (at least publically) to peep into telescopes to see Jupiter's moons going round Jupiter (and not the earth) and Paris Sorbonne, Oxford etc disputed Galileo's evidence (which is funny). The Amerinidian nations, whose informal spokesman (and frontman) President Morales (of Bolivia) was in Podznan, with his nonsensical 75-metre sea level warning, stems from the grouping which seems rather universally behind him. This seemingly nonsensical-sounding hammer-attack to Milutin Milankovits at UN General Assembly is very much on Arctic Sea ice loss issue and ought to be at least on the horizon as the hammer-attacks and anxiety will get louder. - the pre-European Americans stated the grouping of Western nations is wrong on causative (Milutin Milankovit's orbital forcings from alternating insolation), the event was brief and intense and caused by large geothermal fluctuations in the North Atlantic that rapidly vapourised the sea and led into the formation of all terrain covering snow blanket and the ice dome on Hudson Bay. - the retreat of sea ice from South Carolina towards New Founland triggered rapid intense warming when the thin parts of snow blanket rapidly melted and formed huge lakes, while some time later the thick ice dome started to float on its meltwater and violently slid into the north and rapidly melted into ocean. The angriness of the Amerindians is that once the Arctic Ocean sea ice is gone, Greenland will repeat same trick again and Melville Bay collapses. - President Morales pointed that despite their great geographical separation, the Weischelian Ice Sheet, the Laurentide Ice Sheet and the Patagonian Ice Sheet all went in one go. The lesson being that if Greenland goes with bang, it might as well mean that soon the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and the East Antarctic Ice Sheet might go as well too. Well done, if you are seeing the telescope from the eyesocket of the Amerindian who President Morales is. So, obviously who should the United Nations General Assembly to listen to or Podznan or Copenhagen, have we 75 millimetres or 75 metres of water out? The Indianicegroup is discussing the three experiments to address these concerns: - If the Amerindian group of nations and their native recorders are right, then a short-life cosmogenic radioisotope carbon-14 turns up from pre-glaciation era bio detritus deposits that lie under Greenland ice dome and the Amerindian idea of the Atlantic as a sort of 'hot water jacuzzi' is proven as Milankovits model estimates 500 kyr percipitation at least for anything biological found under Greenland ice (as the carbon-14 half-life is 5,770 years). If reading is positive, then Milutin Milankovits and the western models fly out of window overnight and we probably get the flooding described by President Morales. - The Sunken Cities of the Arabian Sea (Bay of Cambay etc.) that lie from 30-120 metres below sea level. If the time consumed from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) to end of Younger Dryas is 15 millennia, then these "sunken cities" should show signs of storms battering the buildings if the Indian Ocean surged over the sites over 15,000 years. The worrying sign here is that they appear as "Pompeii in Water" suggestive of ice-sheet slide out somewhere else that quickly immersed these counties in deep waters. Some work already suggesting that there might be human remains and household valuables in the dwellings of these large conurbations between 500 and 5,000 dwellings. (Note: just 10 years ago people thought there were no ice age cities!) - Insertion of sensitive GPS position, elevation and ground tilt meters on Melville Bay section to see whether the ice internal pressure changes now or in the post sea ice Arctic are capable to stress the coastal periphery to a breaking point as heat and meltwater accummulates within or under Greenland ice. The above may be something speculative and similar to geoengineering, worthwhile, but needs to be done. I am rather happy to see the geoengineering group functional over issues that many doubt and improve and put these issues into public minds and hopefully something good comes out of our efforts. It is my wish all stones are turned and preparations done in case of severe climatic storm ahead to have a well managed responses in place, if required. I am less interested nations trying to validate their histories and fight over definitions who discovered what land first, but have my feet dry and well fed. Neither I would worry about half a penny if Iceland - Jan Mayen ridge produced some sort of Mega Surtsey to make ice age(s), but if the ice falls now... With these new year ideas, wishing you all Happy New Year 2009! Veli Albert Kallio, FRGS
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:52:32 -0800From: [email protected]: [email protected]; [email protected]: [clim] Goodbye 'geoengineering' ... (Hello New Year)Folks,The ratio of (time wasted) + (blood pressure increase) to (useful information) on the geoengineering googlegroup has gotten too much for me ...Therefore, my New Year's resolution is to cease reading posts to that group.I encourage those with relatively focused content and reasonably informed questions to communicate via <[email protected]> (perhaps in addition to <[email protected]>). This "Climate Intervention" group (http://groups.google.com/group/climateintervention) is designed to meet the needs of working professionals in academia, research laboratories, and the policy world. It is designed to transmit information and and act as a forum to discuss research results, new ideas, and so on, at the level of an intelligent graduate student in a related discipline. There is a complementary group called "Geoengineering" (http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering) that is designed to meet the needs of concerned citizens more generally. It is recommended that people who are new to this discussion first pose their questions and comments by writing an email to <[email protected]>, and only submit the question or comment to <[email protected]> if the issue is not adequately addressed in the "Geoengineering" group. Best wishes for the New Year, Ken ___________________________________________________Ken CaldeiraCarnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 [email protected]; [email protected]http://dge.stanford.edu/DGE/CIWDGE/labs/caldeiralab+1 650 704 7212; fax: +1 650 462 5968 _________________________________________________________________ Are you a PC? Upload your PC story and show the world http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
