Hi all, This is a copy of a discussion concerning the ATMOSPHERIC VORTEX TOWER project, sent to "Geoengineering group" for further discussion if it can help.
Sincerely, François MAUGIS. ============================================================================ === Hi Andrew, If nobody was interested by "speculative idea with no academic support" the human civilisation schould not exist ! OK, as you suggest, I send a copy of our discussion to geoeng group. Sincerely, F. MAUGIS. =========================================================================== -----Message d'origine----- De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : lundi 5 janvier 2009 15:38 À : f.m.maugis Objet : Re: [geo] Re: arctic engineering needs and sea-ice science You need to put this to the geoeng group, or to specific individuals with modelling facilities, to get some modelling done. I certainly can't wiki a speculative idea with no academic support. A 2009/1/5 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: > > Hi, Andrew, > > You think right, my idea is to send warm air to the stratosphere to > be cooled. > > As far as we are able to modellize what happen with a natural > hurricane, we can modellize what hapen with a VORTEX TOWER. In my > first mail (dated > 30/12/2008) I gave you few figures (quantity of hot air per second) > but those figures come from an old document. I know that Daniel > GROS,the scientist in charge of this project made several models and > calculation for different size of towers. But, as far as this research > work concern a probable industrial application, only scientists can > get some of those confidential informations (to be asked directly to D. GROS: > [email protected]) > > Anyway, the idea is simple: A vortex tower can be installed near hot > sea to produce hydrogen, in a desert to produce cool air and humidity, > etc. We have several application for this process. The question is: > Does it works ? And if it works, which quantity of vortex tower we > need to have an influence on the climate and the temperature of our atmosphere. > > Sincerely, > > François MAUGIS. > > P.S.: I don't understand your idea to cool the atmosphere only in the > polars areas. Our atmosphere is a unique system with hot and cold > places. We know that the average temperature of the atmosphere is > increasing. The solution is to decrease this average temperature, and > the temperature of the polars areas shall decrease within the same proportion. > ====================================================================== > ====== > ============================== > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : lundi 5 > janvier 2009 11:35 À : f. m. maugis Objet : Re: [geo] Re: arctic > engineering needs and sea-ice science > > > i read an earlier email on the thread, and i think the idea is to send > warm air to the stratosphere to be cooled. Do you have any climate > modelling to support your ideas? > > A > > 2009/1/5 Andrew Lockley <[email protected]>: >> as i understand this is just a renewable energy technology. it has >> nothing to do with geoeng. am i mistaken? >> >> A >> >> 2009/1/5 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: >>> In my "naïve" opinion, geoengineering is engineering work to find a >>> solution to the global problems of our planet and specially the >>> climate > change. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> François. >>> >>> P.S.: Don't you think that it could be usefull to send à copy of >>> this mail (or a syntesis) to the geoengineering group ? >>> ==================================================================== >>> = >>> == >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : >>> samedi >>> 3 janvier 2009 21:00 À : f.m.maugis Objet : Re: [geo] Re: arctic >>> engineering needs and sea-ice science >>> >>> >>> I'm not surprised, I simply don't see what the geoengineering angle is. >>> >>> A >>> >>> 2009/1/3 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: >>>> May I remind you my mail dated 30 dec. 2008 and following P.S.: >>>> =================================================================== >>>> = >>>> == >>>> ====== >>>> P.S.: May I remind you that the vortex tower eject hot air at 15000 >>>>>>>> to 20000 m high. In hot countries, the capacity of the 300 m >>>>>>>> vortex tower is 1 840 000 cubic meter per second, the capacity >>>>>>>> of the 600 m vortex tower is 10 620 000 cubic meter per second. >>>>>>>> It seems to me a very good cooling system for the planet. >>>>>>>> =============================================================== >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> == >>>>>>>> = >>>> >>>> Of course the VORTEX TOWER is supposed to be an energy-generating, >>>> but not only. >>>> >>>> Now, if an energy-generating plant is also able to cool the planet, >>>> all other energy-generating plants must be destroyed and replaced >>>> by this new process. That is my suggestion. And, as far as the >>>> price of the energy produced by the vortex tower is cheaper than >>>> energy produced by other process, I don't see why this proposal >>>> should not be >>> done ? >>>> >>>> Don't you think so ? >>>> >>>> Any way, the vortex tower is really a hudge and brand new project, >>>> and I understand your surprise. But I assure you that this research >>>> programm is really very interesting. I hope that somme of the >>>> Geoeng group have a serious examination of it. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> François. >>>> =================================================================== >>>> = == ====== ====================================== >>>> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : >>>> mercredi 31 décembre 2008 18:19 À : f.m.maugis Objet : Re: [geo] Re: >>>> arctic engineering needs and sea-ice science >>>> >>>> >>>> The literature suggests an energy-generating, not geoeng use. >>>> >>>> A >>>> >>>> 2008/12/31 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: >>>>> OK, we can consider that the principle of ATMOSPHERIC VORTEX TOWER >>>>> is a track of scientific research work. >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, half of the research work has already been done, >>>>> mainly by Daniel GROS (SUMATEL company), but also by the canadian >>>>> engineer Louis MICHAUD on a slightly different way, please refer >>>>> to his first scientific publication (1975): >>>>> http://vortexengine.ca/BAMS/BAMS%20ALL.pdf in following >>>>> site: http://vortexengine.ca/Publications.shtml where you schall >>>>> find also his following publications. As far as I know, it seems >>>>> that a russian [email protected] (see: >>>>> http://www.ergo.boom.ru ) has also been working on that subject, >>>>> but we > have not many details. >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, only M. Daniel GROS is able to propose a scientific >>>>> and credible presentation of the subject. I have seen this >>>>> presentation (Power >>>>> point) done lasr year in Bruxelles at the European Commission >>>>> (Research Department). In my opinion, it is really a fantastic but >>>> realistic project. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> >>>>> François. >>>>> ================================================================== >>>>> = >>>>> == >>>>> = >>>>> ====== >>>>> ========================= >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : >>>>> mercredi 31 décembre 2008 12:36 À : f.m.maugis Objet : Re: [geo] Re: >>>>> arctic engineering needs and sea-ice science >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> OK. Without reference material I am a bit lost as to how to >>>>> categorise this. Is it a cloud making technique, or what? >>>>> >>>>> The patent is enough of a reference, if you don't have anything else. >>>>> >>>>> A >>>>> >>>>> 2008/12/31 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: >>>>>> The first part of my mail: >>>>>> ================================================================= >>>>>> = == = = === The french company working on the ATMOSPHERIC >>>>>> VORTEX TOWER is SUMATEL >>>>>>> Allée les Perce-Neiges - 73540 LA BATHIE (Savoie)- FRANCE. >>>>>>> Phone: 0033.4.79.31.03.20. E mail: [email protected] - The >>>>>>> manager and scientific manager is Daniel GROS. >>>>>> ================================================================= >>>>>> = >>>>>> == >>>>>> = >>>>>> = >>>>>> ====== >>>>>> Can be published. >>>>>> As far as TV and a great number of newspapers have described this >>>>>> project and as far as the main patent ( French patent N° 1439849 >>>>>> - P.V. 983953 dated august third 1964)is not protected any more, >>>>>> we can consider that this project is already into the public domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> Only industrial informations cannot be published for the moment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>> >>>>>> François. >>>>>> >>>>>> ================================================================= >>>>>> = >>>>>> == >>>>>> = >>>>>> = >>>>>> ====== >>>>>> =================================== >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>> De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : >>>>>> mardi 30 décembre 2008 19:08 À : f.m.maugis Objet : Re: [geo] Re: >>>>>> arctic engineering needs and sea-ice science >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> i can't put details of confidential projects into the public >>>>>> domain, can >>>>> I? >>>>>> >>>>>> A >>>>>> >>>>>> 2008/12/30 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> I can only tell you that this project is still confidential, but >>>>>>> following informations can be published: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The french company working on the ATMOSPHERIC VORTEX TOWER is >>>>>>> SUMATEL Allée les Perce-Neiges - 73540 LA BATHIE (Savoie)- FRANCE. >>>>>>> Phone: 0033.4.79.31.03.20. E mail: [email protected] - The >>>>>>> manager and scientific manager is Daniel GROS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Following information cannot be published: >>>>>>> It seems that an important industrial group managed by BOUYGUES, >>>>>>> SUEZ, ALSTHOM, AIR LIQUIDE and probably somme others, prepare >>>>>>> the industrial devloppment of this project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope this helps -- Happy New Year!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> François MAUGIS >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> ================================================================ >>>>>>> = >>>>>>> == >>>>>>> = >>>>>>> = >>>>>>> = >>>>>>> ====== >>>>>>> =========== >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>> De : Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : >>>>>>> mardi 30 décembre 2008 16:34 À : [email protected] Objet : Re: >>> [geo] Re: >>>>>>> arctic engineering needs and sea-ice science >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gimme a reference and i will add it to the wiki >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2008/12/30 f.m.maugis <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and specially John NISSEN and Jennifer FRANCIS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I completely agree with your conclusions and specially those: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> " Reducing carbon emissions and moving to a low carbon economy >>>>>>>> will not help on this timescale of sea ice disappearance. " >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> " I'm afraid we must resort to emergency geoengineering to cool >>>>>>>> the Arctic region, save the Arctic sea ice, slow methane >>>>>>>> discharge from permafrost, and stabilise the Greenland ice sheet." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All available tools must be used, I also agree with that, but >>>>>>>> nobody gave an opinion concerning a brand new tool, the >>>>>>>> ATMOSPHERIC VORTEX TOWER >>>>>>> ! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As far as natural hurricanes are a means for our planet to >>>>>>>> stabilise the climate, dont you think that the rapid >>>>>>>> construction of many of such atmospheric vortex towers in the >>>>>>>> hottest places of the planet, is able to help to cool our >>>>>>>> planet and > the Artic region ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please find attached informations in english and french >>>>>>>> concerning this hudge "climate and energy project". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope to get some comments from Geoengineering Gogle group. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> François MAUGIS >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P.S.: May I remind you that the vortex tower eject hot air at >>>>>>>> 15000 to 20000 m high. In hot countries, the capacity of the >>>>>>>> 300 m vortex tower is 1 840 000 cubic meter per second, the >>>>>>>> capacity of the 600 m vortex tower is 10 620 000 cubic meter per second. >>>>>>>> It seems to me a very good cooling system for the planet. >>>>>>>> =============================================================== >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> == >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> ========== >>>>>>>> ________________________________ De : >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] De la part de John >>>>>>>> Nissen Envoyé : mardi 30 décembre 2008 00:50 À : >>>>>>>> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc : >>>>>>>> [email protected]; [email protected]; >>>>>>>> David Wasdell; Peter Wadhams Objet : [geo] Re: arctic >>>>>>>> engineering needs and sea-ice science >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I looked up Jennifer's posting here: >>>>>>>> http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/ice-retreat-in-arc >>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>> ic >>>>>>>> - m i s ses-last-years-mark/ I see she says, at the end of her >>>>>>>> comment: >>>>>>>> "Ice-free by 2013 still seems highly plausible to me." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jennifer is one of a growing band of polar scientists who think >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> 2013 is more likely than 2030, and it could be sooner still. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are getting massive positive feedback from the albedo effect >>>>>>>> (as high albedo sea ice gives way to low albedo water), which >>>>>>>> will accelerate local warming and then global warming. As >>>>>>>> David Wasdell put it, for his Westminster briefing document: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Planet Earth, We Have A Problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But reducing carbon emissions and moving to a low carbon >>>>>>>> economy will not help on this timescale of sea ice >>>>>>>> disappearance. I'm afraid we must resort >>>>>>>> to: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Emergency Geoengineering >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to cool the Arctic region, save the Arctic sea ice, slow >>>>>>>> methane discharge from permafrost, and stabilise the Greenland ice sheet. >>>>>>>> Stratospheric aerosols and marine cloud brightening could do it. >>>>>>>> We must put one or both of these techniques into practice as >>>>>>>> quickly as we can, while continuing our mitigation efforts with >>>>>>>> renewed >>>> vigour. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That should be a top resolution for President Obama in 2009! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers from Chiswick, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: Andrew Revkin >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] ; [email protected] >>>>>>>> Cc: [email protected] ; >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 4:26 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [geo] arctic engineering needs and sea-ice science hi >>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I consulted with a few sea-ice wizards on the exchanges here >>>>>>>> related to Arctic trends, and Jennifer Francis at Rutgers >>>>>>>> weighed in with the following thoughts. Note the importance of >>>>>>>> the boundary layer changes as well. There are many important >>>>>>>> factors besides albedo and ocean solar >>>>>>> absorption. >>>>>>>> Winter cloudiness etc important factor. But also note the >>>>>>>> importance of not over-interpreting short-term wiggles as trends. >>>>>>>> Much more on Dot Earth and in my earlier coverage of the >>>>>>>> sea-ice question. This post (shortcut) is a good starting point: >>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/dotIceTrends Here's jennifer's comment (I >>>>>>>> sent her that sea-ice graph that was making the rounds here)> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Andy -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The first figure you attached with the extrapolation from the >>>>>>>> 2007 summer ice loss is very unrealistic, in my opinion. Both >>>>>>>> the observed record and model simulations of ice extent exhibit >>>>>>>> a great deal of interannual variability, and most sea ice >>>>>>>> researchers would expect this behavior to continue superimposed >>>>>>>> on a continuing downward >>>>> trend. >>>>>>>> Some years the decline will be dramatic, as it was in 2007, and >>>>>>>> some years there will likely be a recovery, as random >>>>>>>> atmospheric patterns act on the ice cover. What's different now >>>>>>>> as opposed to >>>>>>>> 2 decades ago is that the ice is now so thin that any unusual >>>>>>>> forcing >>>>>>>> -- be it a persistent wind pattern, cloud cover, heat transfer >>>>>>>> from lower latitudes -- will have a much bigger effect on the >>>>>>>> ice, as thin ice is more easily moved by wind and/or melted by >>>>>>>> increased heating. The small ice cover of recent years allows >>>>>>>> more solar energy to be absorbed by the open surface during >>>>>>>> summer, but exactly how that extra heat affects the system >>>>>>>> over the following months is still being worked out. Some >>>>>>>> recent research suggests that during falls after low-ice >>>>>>>> summers the lower atmosphere warms, the atmospheric boundary >>>>>>>> layer gets deeper, and low clouds increase, all of which tend >>>>>>>> to retard regrowth of sea ice in the fall and early winter. It >>>>>>>> also appears there's a large-scale influence on winter weather >>>>>>>> patterns over much of the northern hemisphere. The reason I'm >>>>>>>> telling you all this is that it appears there is no obvious >>>>>>>> mechanism for the ice to rebound significantly unless there is >>>>>>>> a multi-year period of colder-than-normal temperatures, but >>>>>>>> this is not likely as greenhouse gases continue to increase at >>>>>>>> rates even faster than the most pessimistic >>>>>>> IPCC scenario. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regarding water temperatures, the main effect is through the >>>>>>>> added absorption of solar energy in summer, which accelerates >>>>>>>> the melt during late summer. Warmer winter temperatures in the >>>>>>>> Atlantic sector also appear to be responsible for most of the >>>>>>>> retreat of the ice edge during winter in that region, but not >>>>>>>> on the Pacific >>> side. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe this is more info that you needed and much of it you >>>>>>>> already know, but it's not a simple explanation. Regarding the >>>>>>>> shipping text you sent, it looks like a bunch of hooey to me. >>>>>>>> 51 ships in the area will not have a perceptible effect on the >>>>>>>> clouds. The "good" low clouds they're talking about are already >>>>>>>> almost 100% emissive of infrared energy, and adding ship smoke >>>>>>>> to them is not going >>>> to matter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hope this helps -- Happy New Year!! >>>>>>>> Jennifer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>>>> ~ >>>>>>>> ~~ >>>>>>>> ~ >>>>>>>> ~ >>>>>>>> ~ >>>>>>>> ~ >>>>>>>> Jennifer Francis, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Institute of Marine and Coastal Sciences, Rutgers University >>>>>>>> Co-Director of the Rutgers Climate and Environmental Change >>>>>>>> Initiative >>>>>>>> 74 Magruder Rd, Highlands NJ 07732 USA -- Tel: (732) 708-1217, Fax: >>>>>>>> (732) >>>>>>>> 872-1586 >>>>>>>> [email protected] | http://marine.rutgers.edu/~francis/ >>>>>>>> At 9:14 AM -0700 12/29/08, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Re Arctic ice, the issue is not just albedo, but also thermai > inertia. >>>>>>>> The effective heat capacity of the exposed ocean is hugely >>>>>>>> greater than the ice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tom. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andrew C. Revkin >>>>>>>> The New York Times / Science >>>>>>>> 620 Eighth Ave., NY, NY 10018 >>>>>>>> Tel: 212-556-7326 Mob: 914-441-5556 >>>>>>>> Fax: 509-357-0965 >>>>>>>> www.nytimes.com/revkin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
