For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think the programme's ideas where necessarily very sensible. The liquid nitrogen one struck me as particularly silly. http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/hurricane.html
However, I do think that geoengineering ideas should be given additional consideration if they are 'cool' :-). And quite frankly a laser plane that can destroy hurricanes is about as cool as it gets. What a pity it's nonsense :( A 2009/5/6 John Latham <[email protected]> > Hello Andrew, > > The fraction of the total energy of a hurricane that is electrical is very > small when it is fully developed, and utterly miniscule when it is "tiny > wee". So what would zapping achieve? > > Zapping an embryonic hurricane would be no more effectual than a small > child in a tantrum - because he's swallowed salty water - spanking the > Pacific Ocean with his spade to flatten the waves. > > If you dont believe me, seek out papers by lightning experts such as Phil > Krider, Hugh Christian, Paul Krehbeil, Marx Brook, Earle Williams, Clive > Saunders, Martin Uman, Walt Petersen, Pierre Laroche, Don Macgorman, Jim > Dye, etc, etc > > I think it's a good thing to throw novel and unorthodox ideas into the > ring, and long may you continue doing so. But one has also to be prepared to > throw them out from time to time. Sometimes, unfortunately, it's necessary > to contaminate an elegant idea with a modicum of physics. > > > Cheers, John. > > > > > > Quoting Andrew Lockley <[email protected]>: > > > Yep, but only lightening storms become hurricanes. You have to zap them > > when they're tiny wee things. > > A > > > > 2009/5/5 John Latham <[email protected]> > > > >> Hello Andrew, > >> > >> The fraction of hurricane energy in the form of lightning is negligible. > If > >> you could zap the lightning - a very tall order - it would make no > >> difference. > >> > >> Far better to weaken the growth of hurricanes than to take them on when > >> fully fledged, in my view. > >> > >> Cheers, John. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quoting Andrew Lockley <[email protected]>: > >> > >> > There are already various hurricane-busting programmes. Off the top > of > >> my > >> > head, these are: > >> > 1) Using lasers to discharge lightening in the precursor storms > >> > 2) Burning soot in the outer wall to make it absorb heat and cool down > >> > 3) Pouring liquuid N2 onto the surface of the sea > >> > > >> > Sadly these are not detailed on wikipedia, but you can find a summary > at > >> > http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/hurricane.html > >> > > >> > Further discussion of whether these may help reduce AGW would be > welcome. > >> > > >> > A > >> > > >> > 2009/5/5 Bonnelle Denis <[email protected]> > >> > > >> >> Dear Andrew, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> First, I think your call for something to be done is not only about > >> >> stopping hurricanes (i.e., when they are fully mature - I can't guess > >> any > >> >> easy way to achieve this), but also preventing them from developing > at > >> once. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This seems more thinkable. Basically, it means cooling the upper > layer > >> of > >> >> the oceans down, before the beginning of the hurricane season. One > >> method > >> >> has already been presented to this group, but I had answered that, by > >> >> burying the heat deeper into the sea, it would contribute to ocean > >> >> dilatation. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> If not downwards, one may try to dispose of this heat upwards. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> A solution could be derived from that which had been frequently > >> advocated > >> >> here by F. Maugis: the atmospheric vortex engine (AVE - also > developed > >> by L. > >> >> Michaud, from Canada). I have long been a fierce critic of AVE, > which, > >> in my > >> >> opinion, would be highly unstable as long as a shortcut from high to > low > >> >> pressures wouldn't be prohibited. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Indeed, prohibiting it provides the solution, which is, finally, as > >> >> follows: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 1 - moist air, coming from the surface of the ocean, rises (first, it > is > >> >> either drawn, or pushed, upwards - several initializing options are > >> >> possible) through a middle-sized (200 to 300 m high) chimney, which > also > >> >> contains wind turbines and is shaped so that the flow lines look like > >> >> spirals; > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 2 - still rising above the chimney, this spiraling air creates some > >> >> centrifugal force, so that a region of low pressure develops at its > >> centre, > >> >> and keeps on attracting new air from the system's bottom; > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 3 - moving upwards, i.e. being adiabatically cooled, this moist air > >> reaches > >> >> the altitude where its vapor content begins to condensate, which > >> liberates > >> >> latent heat; from now on, its temperature will quite stop > diminishing, > >> so > >> >> that this operating air will soon become warmer than the ambient air, > >> and > >> >> thus buoyant; > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 4 - our hypothetical central low pressure is now justified in three > >> >> respects: from above (1 in the figure hereunder), it is justified by > the > >> >> condensing moist air buoyancy; from under (3), it is consistent with > the > >> >> idea that more moist air has to be attracted so that the system > should > >> keep > >> >> on working (and even produce renewable energy by drawing the > turbines); > >> and > >> >> from the outer space at the same altitude (2), it is justified by the > >> >> cumulative effect of the centrifugal force; > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 5 - However, there remains a problem along the (4) path: the low > >> pressure > >> >> at the chimney exit is jeopardized by the high pressure just before > the > >> air > >> >> goes through the turbine, and the whole air system can be > destabilized > >> by > >> >> some Kelvin-Helmholtz instability; > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 6 - Hence, we must bar this path. The solution is to add a horizontal > >> >> annulus around the chimney's top, with radii ranging from R to around > >> 2.5 R. > >> >> This annulus can be filled with buoyant gases, and, anyway, it will > face > >> >> much less winds than if the same material were raised vertically in > >> order to > >> >> create a greater "chimney effect"; > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 7 - Indeed, this is our real purpose: using, like in a real > hurricane, > >> the > >> >> air's centrifugal force, as a material wall which isolates the inner > low > >> >> pressures from the outer high ones. Thanks to friction, air rotation > >> >> develops not only inside the first cylinder (black flow lines in the > >> >> figure), but also outside it (grey lines), which enhances the total > >> >> centrifugal contribution to the central low pressures. So, we have a > >> virtual > >> >> chimney effect, which, when the 1 to 6 stages are completed, will > >> undergo a > >> >> positive feedback (from energy budgets, this feedback requires that > the > >> >> annulus radii, as a minimum, range from R to 2R, that's why I had > >> written > >> >> previously: "from R to around 2.5 R"). > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 8 - When this positive feedback begins to operate, the structured air > >> >> motion can develop, like a natural hurricane, until this "virtual > >> chimney" > >> >> reaches the tropopause, which is a real achievement as we had begun > with > >> a > >> >> solid chimney only 200m - 300m tall, and its annulus which is not > much > >> >> greater. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 9 - To prevent real hurricanes to develop, such systems can be > located > >> >> closer to the equator (where Coriolis's force is too small to provide > a > >> >> natural hurricane with enough angular momentum, which is not a > problem > >> for > >> >> an AVE, as, inside, it is shaped so that the flow lines become > spirals), > >> >> and, usefully, in the regions where very warm waters are ready to > move > >> >> towards hurricane regions (i.e., off the northern coast of Brazil, > where > >> >> Mexico Gulf hurricanes are being prepared). > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Any comments, especially doubtful ones, are welcomed. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Best, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Denis Bonnelle > >> >> > >> >> [email protected] > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> *De :* [email protected] [mailto: > >> >> [email protected]] *De la part de* Andrew Lockley > >> >> *Envoyé :* mardi 5 mai 2009 03:16 > >> >> *À :* geoengineering > >> >> *Objet :* [geo] stopping hurricanes > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This paper > >> >> > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/04/27/0808914106.abstractsuggests > >> >> that hurricanes cause global warming. I suggest that using geo-eng > to > >> stop > >> >> this happening would be socially acceptable, fundable and desirable. > >> There > >> >> are several promising ideas for doing this, and I'd like to hear > views > >> on > >> >> the implications of this research for the debate on geoeng and the > >> practical > >> >> implementation of suitable techniques. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> A > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> John Latham > >> > >> [email protected] & [email protected] > >> > >> Tel. 303-444-2429 (H) & 303-497-8182 (W) > >> > > > > -- > John Latham > > [email protected] & [email protected] > > Tel. 303-444-2429 (H) & 303-497-8182 (W) > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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