Dear all

I find this a useful discussion and thank you Chris in particular for engaging in this from your role at the LC/LP. A few comments and questions:

Chris: you say that "There are 2 separate issues that need to be addressed with respect to governance of operational marine geoengineering activities (as opposed to research studies) - protection of the marine environment and regulation of climate mitigation activities." only two issues??? I think that's significantly understating things: - As well as these 2 areas of concern there is also to be considered the impact of those activities beyond the marine environment (eg. dumping large quantities of biomass at sea implies land use impacts when that biomass is harvested while marine cloud whitening, were it shown to alter coastal and inland precipitation patterns, could impact agriculture, aquifers and biodiversity on land as well). More importantly the impact of such activities on the rights and interests of peoples who share the commons (eg fisherfolk, coastal communities, indigenous communities etc) are ignored in your statement - Those 'issues' are far from represented in the LC/LP which as i understand it has a narrow remit to consider only the ecological impact of dumping, has extremely limited participation from even NGO's (partly because of limits placed on accreditation by the LC/LP) and from what I have observed does not at all seek to integrate the views of indigenous and small fisher perspectives ( i hope you can tell me i am wrong on this). The UNFCCC is slightly better in enabling broader perspectives and participation and the CBD is better still with 'sustainable use' of biodiversity and the question of livelihoods and rights written right into the aims and framing of the convention - including an entire subsidiary body devoted to indigenous and local community participation (article 8j) and a (slightly) elevated status for indigenous peoples in the negotiations over and above other observers.

The truth is any and every global governance body can ultimately be accused of being northern/corporate driven because the pitch is tilted to begin with and those are the players best able to marshall resources to exert influence, to afford air travel and staff time, to overcome institutional biases such as language/translation and cultural limitations and to devote people and money to tracking and intervening in the minutae of complex negotiations. However given how significantly geoengineering technologies could widen north-south divides it would at least make sense to choose a venue for geoengineering governance that already strives to maximise southern participation somewhat effectively. UNFCCC could theoretically be such a venue but in practice it has some of the most bitter north-south hostility of any multilateral institution with accusations from south governments that they are straight-out ignored in decisionmaking (eg over the willingness to treat the much-disputed and narrowly supported copenhagen accord as equal in weight to fully consensual agreements painstakingly made under the LCA process). UNGA or CBD both have a better track record of giving the south more of the voice and standing they deserve and thus get better southern involvement and attendance. They also have broad enough mandates to encompass the full spectrum of geoengineering activities , not just marine, and in the case of the CBD already have an institutional agreement with both the UNFCCC and RAMSAR (the desertification convention) to collaborate on climate change decisionmaking - ie its a good place for joint governance. As you know the CBD has also begun to extensively engage with governance of ocean fertilization through both its programmes on Climate change and biodiversity and on marine and coastal biodiversity. Those who attend the CBD SBSTTA on behalf of parties include many marine biodiversity experts who also are part of the LC/LP process and indeed respectfully take note of decisions made in that place in their own decisions. Indeed I think we are all very grateful to the scientific groups of the London Convention for making the first moves to initiate global governance on geoengineering technologies - it just isn't neccesarily the appropriate final resting place for all or even most governance decisions on the topic.

You make the distinction that LC/LP is a regulatory process. What is the means of enforcement? I notice that at least once LC/LP member, Germany, recently moved ahead with an ocean fertilization experiment (lohafex) after the full body of the LC/LP declared that only legitimate scientific studies as agreed under their process could proceed and before the terms of what constitutes legitimate scientific studies had actually been agreed, thereby acting outside of the agreements made in LC/LP. Was enforcement action taken against Germany? What redress through the LC/LP do other states or affected non-state entities have in a situation like this? If none was taken i don't understand how this differs in practice from the way a treaty body such as CBD enforces (or fails to enforce) its decisions.

best

Jim Thomas
ETC Group


On Jun 8, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Chris wrote:

Wil raised an interesting question "What would happen in a case where
the LC deemed an experimental approach safe under the risk assessment
protocol being developed and the parties to the UNFCCC did not?". I
assume Wil was referring to a marine environmental issue but I find it
difficult to conceive how the UNFCCC could come to such a view since
the issue would be outside its remit and area of expertise. However.
in my personal view the LC/LP view should prevail in such
circumstances. The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is of course
the pre-eminent legal instrument in matters to do with the sea and
might be seen as the ultimate arbiter in such disputes. The LC/LP
should only permit operational geoengineering activities for climate
mitigation purposes if they have been clearly approved by the UNFCCC.

While some may see the LC/LP as a North/corporate regime, developing
countries make up about half the contracting parties to one or both
instruments. It is true that we do not get widespread attendence at
meetings from developing countries, probably main due to the cost of
travelling to the meetings. However, if a country is a member of the
International Maritime Organisation (IMO), then there there is no
membership fee to join the LC/LP - preferably the latter as the more
modern instrument - but there are clearly costs in setting up
legislation and licensing regimes in the countries to meet the
requirements of the instruments as well as travelling to meetings.

Chris Vivian, Chairman of the Scientific Groups of the London
Convention and Protocol
[email protected]

On Jun 8, 4:53 pm, Wil Burns <[email protected]> wrote:
With reference to Chris's response to my messages about the proper province for governance, I think co-governance is an interesting idea. There hasn't been a lot of precedence in this context, but it might be an extremely
effective approach, so many thanks for expanding my horizons in this
context! One question I would ask is how this would work empirically should a conflict arise between the regimes. As you point out, many developing countries view the LC as largely a North/corporate regime, fairly or not.
I guess we would have to agree in advance that the LC's
assessment should prevail given its expertise in assessing impacts of
stressors on the marine environment, but it might be hard sell. wil

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:34 AM,
<[email protected]<geoengineering %2bnore...@googlegro ups.com>





wrote:
  Today's Topic Summary

Group:http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/topics

- New study on cloud albedo enhancement<#129172064e1bd9f8_group_thread_0>[1 Update] - New Clive Hamilton piece on geoengineering<#129172064e1bd9f8_group_thread_1>[1 Update] - Digest for [email protected] - 4 Messages in 4 Topics<#129172064e1bd9f8_group_thread_2>[1 Update]

Topic: New study on cloud albedo enhancement<http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/t/a4dbf849f6b0ecb7 >

Wil Burns <[email protected]> Jun 07 11:52AM -0700 ^<#129172064e1bd9f8_digest_top>

For those of you haven't seen this yet, there's an interesting recent
   study
   in Atmospheric Chemistry & Physics (
   http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/10/4133/2010/acp-10-4133-2010.pdf)
   assessing
the impacts of marine cloud albedo enhancement using a global aerosol
   transport model. Among the takeaways from the study:

- Changes in cloud drop number concentration (CDNC) were small (20% or less), and in one of the four regions studied (North Pacific, as well
   as off
   the coast of Chile), even negative. The authors argue this was
   attributable
   to the fact that particles suppress in-cloud supersaturation,
   preventing
   existing aerosol particles from forming cloud drops;
- A run with 5x higher emissions showed much greater CDNC changes, but
   the median was still below that found in previous studies;
- The study showed substantial differences in CDNC between and within regions, in distinction to far more regional homogeneity in previous
   studies

It would be interesting to hear the take of some of the folks on this
   list
   with expertise in this context. wil

   --
   Dr. Wil Burns, Editor in Chief
   Journal of International Wildlife Law & Policy
   1702 Arlington Blvd.
   El Cerrito, CA 94530 USA
   Ph: 650.281.9126
   Fax: 510.779.5361
   [email protected]
   http://www.jiwlp.com
   SSRN site:http://ssrn.com/author=240348
   Skype ID: Wil.Burns

Topic: New Clive Hamilton piece on geoengineering<http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/t/54a613415891c429 >

Wil Burns <[email protected]> Jun 07 05:30AM -0700 ^<#129172064e1bd9f8_digest_top>

   FYI:

http://www.clivehamilton.net.au/cms/media/documents/articles/dr_stran ...
   .

   wil

   --
   Dr. Wil Burns, Editor in Chief
   Journal of International Wildlife Law & Policy
   1702 Arlington Blvd.
   El Cerrito, CA 94530 USA
   Ph: 650.281.9126
   Fax: 510.779.5361
   [email protected]
   http://www.jiwlp.com
   SSRN site:http://ssrn.com/author=240348
   Skype ID: Wil.Burns

Topic: Digest for [email protected] - 4 Messages in 4 Topics <http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/t/ff1c90fda6351ec3 >

Chris <[email protected]> Jun 07 12:28AM -0700 ^<#129172064e1bd9f8_digest_top>

With reference to Wil Burns comments on 20 and 25 May about governance of ocean fertilisation activities, I would disagree that the UNFCCC by
   itself would be the most appropriate body for governing ocean
fertilisation or other marine geoengineering activities. The key issue
   that Wil does not mention in the context of ocean fertilisation
activities, is the protection of the marine environment and this is the reason that the London Convention/Protocol (LC/LP) became involved with the issue. It is clearly within its remit (Article I of the LC and article 2 of the LP) and it is also clearly outside the remit of the UNFCCC. While the LC/LP may only have 92 states party to one or
   both of the instruments compared to the universal regime of the
UNFCCC, that is not “an extremely limited membership”. When you take account of the number of land-locked states in the world – around 40 – the LC/LP membership has more than 50% of the coastal states in the world. The same point also applies with respect to the CBD that is in any case not a regulatory body. While some may regard the LC/LP as a “tool of the North”, those instruments have a significant number of developing countries as contracting parties and some of them are very
   active in meetings. In addition, there is an active programme to
encourage additional states who are not LC or LP members to sign up to
   the LP as the main instrument for the future.

There are 2 separate issues that need to be addressed with respect to governance of operational marine geoengineering activities (as opposed
   to research studies) - protection of the marine environment and
   regulation of climate mitigation activities. The LC/LP is the
appropriate body with the necessary expertise for the former while the UNFCCC is clearly the appropriate body with the required expertise for
   the latter. Thus, I suggest that it might be most appropriate and
efficient for the UNFCCC to co-ordinate all climate mitigation aspects of marine geoengineering, including determining what activities are acceptable for climate mitigation purposes, claims for credits etc while the LC/LP regulates those activities determined as acceptable by the UNFCCC in order to protect the marine environment from harm i.e. a
   form of joint governance for ocean fertilisation or other marine
   geoengineering activities. This approach is consistent with the
   principles of lex specialis that Wil states in his posts.

It also needs to be made clear that the current LC/LP approach only deals with the regulation of research activities since the non- binding
   resolution agreed in 2008 agreed “that given the present state of
   knowledge, ocean fertilization activities other than legitimate
scientific research should not be allowed. To this end, such other
   activities should be considered as contrary to the aims of the
Convention and Protocol and not currently qualify for any exemption from the definition of dumping in Article III.1(b) of the Convention and Article 1.4.2 of the Protocol”. It maybe that the UNFCCC does not need to be involved in the regulation of research activities, although it would clearly be interested in the outcomes of any research so that it can determine what activities are acceptable for climate mitigation
   purposes.
   I agree with Wil that we need to move rather swiftly to establish
appropriate governance regimes for such activities and this is what the LC/LP are currently trying to do for ocean fertilisation in order
   to protect the marine environment.

   Chris Vivian
   Chairman, Scientific Groups of the London Convention and Protocol

 --
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"geoengineering" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]<geoengineering %2bunsubscr...@go oglegroups.com>
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.

--
Dr. Wil Burns, Editor in Chief
Journal of International Wildlife Law & Policy
1702 Arlington Blvd.
El Cerrito, CA 94530 USA
Ph:   650.281.9126
Fax: 510.779.5361
[email protected]http://www.jiwlp.com
SSRN site:http://ssrn.com/author=240348
Skype ID: Wil.Burns- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en .



Jim Thomas
ETC Group (Montreal)
[email protected]
+1 514 2739994





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.

Reply via email to