Andrew, Sorry for this second post, typos have been repaired. On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Michael Hayes <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dr. Latham et al., > > After you submitted the HydeTellerWood paper last year, it did change many > of my concepts. > > I have been working upon a possible list of concept criterias which could > guide current and future efforts. So far, I have only a few design > criterions. > > 1) Places a high value on social/political acceptance. > > 2) Have a high degree of environmental interface reaction understanding > down to the 3rd order effects. > > 3) Be adjustable to seasonal/regional/special situational (political) > conditions. > > 4) Have positive ancillary social/environmental benefits. > As far as I know, we have no available work on nor consensus of concept design value(s). Unfortunately, we are still in a stage which concepts are championed by individuals under values they themselves promote. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, however the developement of theiretical design values would help on a number of different important levels. > > The concept of large scale Geophysical Management Science (GeMS) is only > starting and there will be many concepts put forth. How do we 'judge' them? > > Here is an example: *Pseudomonas syringae* > ** > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_syringae > > "Ice nucleating properties > > *P. syringae*, more than any mineral or other organism, is responsible > for the surface frost damage in > plants<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost#Effect_on_plants> > ,[8] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_syringae#cite_note-7>exposed > to the environment. > *P. syringae* can cause water to freeze at temperatures as high as -1.8 °C > (28.8 > °F),[9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_syringae#cite_note-8>but > strains causing ice > nucleation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleation> at lower > temperatures (down to -8°C) are more > common.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_syringae#cite_note-Chapter4-9>The > freezing causes injuries in the epithelia and makes the nutrients in > the underlying plant tissues available to the bacteria.[*citation > needed<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed> > *] > > *P. syringae* have *ina* (ice nucleation-active) genes that make Ina > proteins which translocate to the outer bacterial cell > wall<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_wall>on the surface of the bacteria > where the Ina proteins act as nuclei for ice > formation.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_syringae#cite_note-Chapter4-9>Artificial > strains of > *P. syringae* known as ice-minus > bacteria<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-minus_bacteria>have been created to > reduce frost damage. > > *P. syringae* have been found in the center of hailstones, suggesting > that the bacterium may play a role in Earth's hydrological > cycle.[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_syringae#cite_note-BBC25May2011-4> > " > > If a proposal were put forth using this as a key technology, how can we > accurately/objectively compare it to all others? > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Ken Caldeira < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I think there have been two main reasons for focus on sulfur, at least >> for the stratosphere: >> >> 1. It can be released as a gas (SO2 or H2S) that can then oxidize to form >> particles of approximately the right size, greatly reducing problems of >> dispersion upon release. >> >> 2. Volcanoes did it and it worked. We may be able to be about as >> intelligent as a volcano. >> >> >> _______________ >> Ken Caldeira >> >> Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology >> 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA >> +1 650 704 7212 [email protected] >> http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab @kencaldeira >> >> *YouTube:* >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9LaYCbYCxo>Climate change and the >> transition from coal to low-carbon >> electricity<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9LaYCbYCxo> >> Crop yields in a geoengineered >> climate<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0LCXNoIu-c> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 7:30 PM, John Latham < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I am probably missing a crucial point or two - if so please >>> correct me - but I am failing to understand the current almost >>> absolute focus on sulphur as a seeding agent. >>> >>> In the case of stratospheric seeding the case for sulphur seeding >>> is of course strong, but even then it seems worthwhile to have a >>> serious look at alternatives. The attached comprehensive and >>> authoritative paper by Rod Hyde, Lowell Wood & Edward Teller >>> provides such an examination with rigorous physical understanding. >>> At the least, we need to know what alternatives exist in case >>> some problem arises with the use of sulphur aerosol. >>> >>> In the case of tropospheric seeding with sulphur, as has already >>> been said, the public reaction is likely to be violently adverse.So >>> it seems vital to ask why this is the approach that so many people >>> seem to be advocating - or at least considering much more fully >>> than alternatives. Unfortunately I do not have the requisite >>> knowledge to name such, except to raise the possibility that >>> seawater aerosol seeding (which is of course central to the >>> in-cloud MCB idea) could also be used for out-of-cloud >>> tropospheric seeding. It is likely to be much more benign >>> than tropospheric sulphur seeding. >>> >>> All Best, John. >>> >>> >>> John Latham >>> Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000 >>> Email: [email protected] or [email protected] >>> Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429 >>> or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002 >>> http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "geoengineering" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > *Michael Hayes* > *360-708-4976* > http://www.voglerlake.com > > > -- *Michael Hayes* *360-708-4976* http://www.voglerlake.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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