Hi, Ken - That there's "nothing new under the sun" is equally true for philosophy and solar radiation management, I suppose, yet this doesn't prevent philosophy from continuing on, changing, and, yes, sometimes circling its wagons over millennia.
I think that, philosophically speaking, there's something important and different in our time, if not entirely new, that entirely surrounds geoengineering but isn't just the geoengineering itself. But sorry, to get into it one needs to take up that uber-dangerous "four letter word," as it's been called. Don't worry, I won't name it. Fred Pearce said that "if ---- dare not speak her name in Nature, then shame on science." Moral philosopher Mary Midley made a strong case that this represents a a major change in philosophy for our time. Her book Science and Poetry is all about tracing lines of thought from Lucretius through Dawkins (I'm not sure I am convinced by how she posits De Rerum Natura in relation to modern thought, but it makes a most interesting read), finally focusing on the "four-letter" approach as a new way of getting beyond certain old "atomist" arguments. Lynn Margulis sometimes said that Americans seem particularly prone to feel that it isn't important to have any philosophy, but if one wants to get into a discussion of geoengineering and philosophy, it would seem to me almost impossible to stay shy from the new "four-letter" world and all the disputes about it and what it really means - indeed, one could even say the dirty word IS the philosophy of geoengineering: as Midgley points out, the word geophysiology was introduced specifically to frame the "four letter" concept, launching with it a 'medical model' in which the planet is conceived something like a patient to be doctored......wouldn't that be geoengineering? So, the new ethical issue, Ken, is ------! Cheers, Nathan On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 7:09 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/topics > > - Ethics of Geoengineering (anything > new?)<#1368c7e2d866bdeb_group_thread_0>[5 Updates] > - New Ethics of Geoengineering Online > Resource<#1368c7e2d866bdeb_group_thread_1>[1 Update] > > Ethics of Geoengineering (anything > new?)<http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/t/844082127e401b81> > > Ken Caldeira <[email protected]> Apr 06 11:27PM +0200 > > Having but an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, you can forgive me > for > asking stupid questions, but ... > > Does geoengineering raise any ethical issues not already considered by > historical figures such as Aristotle, Hume, Kant, and so on? > > Isn't the ethics of making decisions that affect others not involved in > making the decisions a problem as old as humanity? > > I just don't understand how there is anything new here for philosophy. > > Surely there are difficult decisions to be made with moral dimensions, > but > I just can't imagine how geoengineering could pose fundamentally new > philosophic problems. > > Perhaps someone can compensate for my failure of imagination and tell > me in > what way geoengineering poses fundamentally new philosophic problems > not > previously addressed. > > > > > _______________ > Ken Caldeira > > Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology > 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA > +1 650 704 7212 [email protected] > http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab @kencaldeira > > *Currently visiting * Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies > (IASS)<http://www.iass-potsdam.de/> > > *and *Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Resarch > (PIK)<http://www.pik-potsdam.de/> > *in Potsdam, Germany.* > > > > > > > > Ken Caldeira <[email protected]> Apr 07 12:01AM +0200 > > You are saying is that there are difficult moral decisions to be made. > That > is certainly true. > > That is different from saying that this poses new questions for the > academic discipline of philosophy. > > I see philosophy as a discipline that is largely aimed at identifying > truths that are mainly independent of empirical facts (although > sometimes > consideration of empirical facts can lead us to see truths that are > fundamentally independent of those facts). Furthermore, sometimes > empirical > facts change the meanings of words in ways that change the truth value > of > statements. Neuroscience has perhaps influenced philosophy of mind or > philosophy of language in this way. > > There are many problems that pose ethical dilemmas that demand moral > thought and reflection, where the choice of action clearly depends > on empirical facts, but these dilemmas typically do not pose > fundamentally > new problems for philosophical investigation. > > I just don't understand what the new philosophical research is that > needs > to be done in the field of geoengineering ( as opposed to applying old > philosophical insights to new empirical facts ). > > > > > > > Jamais Cascio <[email protected]> Apr 06 02:38PM -0700 > > I think it's primarily a question of scale. The underlying > philosophical questions aren't new, but the scale at which the questions > apply -- in terms of both time and geography -- is comparable to only a few > other issues (most notably, nuclear weapons). There are few substantive > issues that have this kind of (literally) planetary-level importance > coupled with the condition of being direct human choices (as opposed to > second-order consequences). > > In other words, getting this wrong could screw over nearly everyone, > potentially for multiple generations. > > -Jamais Cascio > > > > On Apr 6, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Ken Caldeira wrote: > > > > > > John Latham <[email protected]> Apr 06 10:09PM > > Hello Ken et al, > > Not having an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, and my > involvement with the subject being confined to participating in > demonstrations and marches led by Bertrand Russell in the > 1950/1960s, I am not competent to challenge or comment on > any of the specific points Ken raises. > > But I wonder whether - since geoengineering is related to issues > concerned with a novel situation: the possible extinction of many > of Earth's life-forms and associated massive planetary disruption > - there may be philosophical questions hitherto not recognised or > fully examined, perhaps not thought to be important or valid, which > could profitably be addressed now. > > I do not know the answer to this question. > > All Best Wishes, John. > > > > > > John Latham > Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000 > Email: [email protected] or [email protected] > Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429 > or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002 > http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham > ________________________________________ > From: [email protected] [[email protected]] > on behalf of Ken Caldeira [[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 10:27 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [geo] Ethics of Geoengineering (anything new?) > > Having but an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, you can forgive me > for asking stupid questions, but ... > > Does geoengineering raise any ethical issues not already considered by > historical figures such as Aristotle, Hume, Kant, and so on? > > Isn't the ethics of making decisions that affect others not involved > in making the decisions a problem as old as humanity? > > I just don't understand how there is anything new here for philosophy. > > Surely there are difficult decisions to be made with moral dimensions, > but I just can't imagine how geoengineering could pose fundamentally new > philosophic problems. > > Perhaps someone can compensate for my failure of imagination and tell > me in what way geoengineering poses fundamentally new philosophic problems > not previously addressed. > > > > > _______________ > Ken Caldeira > > Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology > 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA > +1 650 704 7212 [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> > http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab @kencaldeira > > Currently visiting Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies > (IASS)<http://www.iass-potsdam.de/> > and Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Resarch (PIK)< > http://www.pik-potsdam.de/> in Potsdam, Germany. > > > > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Andrea Gammon <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > The Mansfield Center for Ethics and Public Affairs at the University > of Montana (with support from the National Science Foundation) is pleased > to announce the launch of the Ethics of Geoengineering Online Resource > Center. > > We have attempted to make this an exhaustive resource for materials, > organizations, and events related to geoengineering and ethics. We will > continue to work to make the site increasingly comprehensive, accessible, > and engaging. We welcome feedback and suggestions about significant > resources that are not yet included. Please bring to our attention any > papers, events, and other media you think may be missing. > > Visit the site at: < > > https://ch1prd0102.outlook.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=OWAMf8GxrUmH3DmLPhvEmRVCg4-F5s4Ia3rgDEllyFha_7YuC8CjtGrFU9mOVuqXWwDCLmctAsw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.umt.edu%2fethics%2fresourcecenter%2fdefault.php> > http://www.umt.edu/ethics/resourcecenter/default.php > > Please email feedback or suggestions to <mailto: > [email protected]> [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> > > Thanks! > > Andrea Gammon > Graduate Research Assistant, Department of Philosophy > University of Montana, '13 > > Christopher Preston > Associate Professor of Philosophy and Fellow at the Program on Ethics > and Public Affairs > University of Montana > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<mailto: > geoengineering%[email protected]>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > "John Gorman" <[email protected]> Apr 07 08:30AM +0100 > > Sounds like another case for the quote from Robert Samuelson > (economist) > "The trouble with the global warming debate is that it > has become a moral crusade when it's really an engineering problem. The > inconvenient truth is that if we don't solve the engineering problem, > we're > helpless." > > john gorman (engineer) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Latham" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Cc: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 11:09 PM > Subject: RE: [geo] Ethics of Geoengineering (anything new?) > > > Hello Ken et al, > > Not having an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, and my > involvement with the subject being confined to participating in > demonstrations and marches led by Bertrand Russell in the > 1950/1960s, I am not competent to challenge or comment on > any of the specific points Ken raises. > > But I wonder whether - since geoengineering is related to issues > concerned with a novel situation: the possible extinction of many > of Earth's life-forms and associated massive planetary disruption > - there may be philosophical questions hitherto not recognised or > fully examined, perhaps not thought to be important or valid, which > could profitably be addressed now. > > I do not know the answer to this question. > > All Best Wishes, John. > > > > > > John Latham > Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000 > Email: [email protected] or [email protected] > Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429 > or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002 > http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham > ________________________________________ > From: [email protected] [[email protected]] > on > behalf of Ken Caldeira [[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 10:27 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [geo] Ethics of Geoengineering (anything new?) > > Having but an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, you can forgive me > for > asking stupid questions, but ... > > Does geoengineering raise any ethical issues not already considered by > historical figures such as Aristotle, Hume, Kant, and so on? > > Isn't the ethics of making decisions that affect others not involved > in > making the decisions a problem as old as humanity? > > I just don't understand how there is anything new here for philosophy. > > Surely there are difficult decisions to be made with moral dimensions, > but I > just can't imagine how geoengineering could pose fundamentally new > philosophic problems. > > Perhaps someone can compensate for my failure of imagination and tell > me in > what way geoengineering poses fundamentally new philosophic problems > not > previously addressed. > > > > > _______________ > Ken Caldeira > > Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology > 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA > +1 650 704 7212 > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab @kencaldeira > > Currently visiting Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies > (IASS)<http://www.iass-potsdam.de/> > and Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Resarch > (PIK)<http://www.pik-potsdam.de/> in Potsdam, Germany. > > > > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Andrea Gammon > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > The Mansfield Center for Ethics and Public Affairs at the University > of > Montana (with support from the National Science Foundation) is pleased > to > announce the launch of the Ethics of Geoengineering Online Resource > Center. > > We have attempted to make this an exhaustive resource for materials, > organizations, and events related to geoengineering and ethics. We > will > continue to work to make the site increasingly comprehensive, > accessible, > and engaging. We welcome feedback and suggestions about significant > resources that are not yet included. Please bring to our attention any > papers, events, and other media you think may be missing. > > Visit the site at: > < > > https://ch1prd0102.outlook.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=OWAMf8GxrUmH3DmLPhvEmRVCg4-F5s4Ia3rgDEllyFha_7YuC8CjtGrFU9mOVuqXWwDCLmctAsw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.umt.edu%2fethics%2fresourcecenter%2fdefault.php> > > http://www.umt.edu/ethics/resourcecenter/default.php > > Please email feedback or suggestions to > <mailto:[email protected]> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > Thanks! > > Andrea Gammon > Graduate Research Assistant, Department of Philosophy > University of Montana, '13 > > Christopher Preston > Associate Professor of Philosophy and Fellow at the Program on Ethics > and > Public Affairs > University of Montana > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] > >. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<mailto: > geoengineering%[email protected]>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > New Ethics of Geoengineering Online > Resource<http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/t/1bbedb5f8d6caae1> > > Andrea Gammon <[email protected]> Apr 06 01:58PM -0700 > > The Mansfield Center for Ethics and Public Affairs at the University > of Montana (with support from the National Science Foundation) is pleased > to announce the launch of the Ethics of Geoengineering Online Resource > Center. > > We have attempted to make this an exhaustive resource for materials, > organizations, and events related to geoengineering and ethics. We will > continue to work to make the site increasingly comprehensive, accessible, > and engaging. We welcome feedback and suggestions about significant > resources that are not yet included. Please bring to our attention any > papers, events, and other media you think may be missing. > > Visit the site at: http://www.umt.edu/ethics/resourcecenter/default.php > > Please email feedback or suggestions to [email protected] > > Thanks! > > Andrea Gammon > Graduate Research Assistant, Department of Philosophy > University of Montana, '13 > > Christopher Preston > Associate Professor of Philosophy and Fellow at the Program on Ethics > and Public Affairs > University of Montana > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > geoengineering. > You can post via email <[email protected]>. > To unsubscribe from this group, > send<[email protected]>an empty message. > For more options, > visit<http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering/topics>this group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.
