Dear All,

Thank you for this interesting and important discussion.

A related query: I have been searching the literature for any information
on what industries are likely to be involved in producing the chemical
species needed to enact any potential SAI geoengineering. Pointers in this
direction would be appreciated.

I have heard it said in passing at workshops / conferences that this is
likely to involve, and offer significant profit opportunity to, the
petrochemical industry, but haven't yet seen any detailed discussion of
this in the literature (though I assume I am just overlooking this).

Francis

On 2 February 2018 at 13:16, Douglas MacMartin <macma...@cds.caltech.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Ryan, and all,
>
>
>
> Thanks for all of this.  I agree (and I think everyone is aware of the
> concern) that there is the potential for vested fossil fuel interests to
> seize on SRM as an excuse to avoid regulation – we saw that in Lamar
> Smith’s comments before the hearing last year (I don’t recall that he
> actually stayed to listen to the hearing, since all 4 of us repeated the
> fact that you can’t do that anyway, but I doubt that would have mattered).
>
>
>
> There were certainly a few connections people mentioned that I was unaware
> of (Shell funding some CDR) or had forgotten about (like Steve Koonin, my
> former provost, who had some passing interest and also had a brief stint at
> BP).  But all incredibly minor contributors to the subject.  I was simply
> reacting, as is Jesse, to the assertion in the email thread that they “fund
> many GE supporters” *in the present tense*.  Indeed, I think it is far
> more striking observation that the precise opposite is true – that at least
> as far as SRM is concerned, within a rounding error 100% of the interest,
> and even without a rounding error 100% of the research funding comes from
> people committed to mitigation.  Indeed, given that history, that might
> give some of us more hope for the future interests as well.
>
>
>
> As a minor point, Jesse already pointed out that Tillerson’s comment
> wasn’t about GE, but I’d also point out that you can’t use the fact that
> Ken and Bala used to work at Livermore as some mysterious connection to
> vested interests; Livermore has a great climate group that has been
> instrumental in CMIP and hence in IPCC, so by that argument you’d also have
> to assert that fossil fuel interests support climate science.
>
>
>
> doug
>
>
>
> *From:* Gunderson, Ryan [mailto:gunde...@miamioh.edu]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 02, 2018 7:29 AM
> *To:* Reynolds, J.L. (Jesse) <j.l.reyno...@uu.nl>
> *Cc:* m...@clivehamilton.com; Daniel B Kirk-Davidoff <da...@umd.edu>;
> Douglas MacMartin <macma...@cds.caltech.edu>; geoengineering <
> geoengineering@googlegroups.com>; brian.peter...@nau.edu;
> diana.stu...@nau.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [geo] Fwd: Geoengineering and Capitalism
>
>
>
> Dear Jesse,
>
> I assume and hope that the majority GE scientists also support
> mitigation.  Certainly the most prominent do.
>
> Regarding the comment about GE as a "project of the right": As I mentioned
> in one of the emails with Dan, the concrete intentions (and I'd include
> political priorities here) of GE scientists may be relatively unimportant.
> What is more consequential, in my opinion, is what happens to GE in social,
> political, and economic context.  And why GE will likely pick up steam due
> to this context.  Our paper tries to highlight these social conditions as
> well as the types of justifications that appeal to powerful interests.  If
> the fossil fuel industry, climate change denialists like the Heartland
> Institute, and the GOP embrace GE, for example, it's worth asking why this
> is the case. (This does not mean that only the right supports GE research
> or deployment, or that something is "bad" just because the right supports
> it.  The right here is just meant to signify a group that best represents
> captial's interest in $ > burn fossil fuels > $$ > burn fossil fuels >
> $$$.)  I assume that the majority of GE scientists would argue that GE
> without mitigation is a problematic way forward (ocean acidification
> etc.).  Despite this, one should still try to understand the large appeal
> GE has to those who have a vested interest in burning fossil fuels to
> accumulate capital.  To me, the issue is "structural" - our paper is not an
> attempt to blame GE scientists for the prospects of deployment.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
> Ryan
>
>
> --
> Ryan Gunderson, Ph.D.
>
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Sociology & Gerontology
> Miami University
>
> rgsoc.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 2:47 AM, Reynolds, J.L. (Jesse) <j.l.reyno...@uu.nl>
> wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
>
>
> That “infamous statement by Exxon's Rex Tillerson” was about adaptation,
> not geoengineering: “And as human beings as a — as a — as a species, that’s
> why we’re all still here. We have spent our entire existence adapting, OK?
> So we will adapt to this.  Changes to weather patterns that move crop
> production areas around -- we’ll adapt to that. It’s an engineering problem
> and it has engineering solutions.”
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/
> 2016/12/13/rex-tillersons-view-of-climate-change-its-just-
> an-engineering-problem/
>
> To my knowledge, Tillerson has never said a single word about
> geoengineering.
>
>
>
> The other purported connections – including those in the 2014 Hamilton
> essay that Ryan posted – are generally old, tenuous, and with CDR.
>
>
>
> Anyone familiar with the geoengineering discourse could make a list of who
> have moved it substantially forward. Off the top of my head, I’d suggest
> Paul Crutzen, the US National Academies, the Royal Society, Mike
> MacCracken, David Keith, Ken Caldeira – each of whom has emphasized the
> primacy of mitigation. Shell, Steve Koonin, Lee Lane, and Newt Gingrich are
> bit players in this story, at best.
>
>
>
> In my opinion, claims that (solar) geoengineering is a project of the
> right are examples of people choosing limited evidence in order to reach a
> conclusion upon which they have already decided. I suspect that some of
> them know better.
>
>
>
> -Jesse
>
> *Dr. Jesse Reynolds* | Assistant Professor and Research Funding
> Coordinator | Institute for Jurisprudence, Constitutional and
> Administrative Law | Utrecht Centre for Water, Oceans and Sustainability
> Law | Faculty of Law, Economics and Governance | Utrecht University | 
> Newtonlaan
> 201
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+3584+BH+Utrecht+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+The+Netherlands+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E&entry=gmail&source=g>
> |
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201%0D+%7C+3584+BH+Utrecht%0D+%7C+The+Netherlands&entry=gmail&source=g>
>  3584
> BH Utrecht
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+3584+BH+Utrecht+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+The+Netherlands+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E&entry=gmail&source=g>
> |
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201%0D+%7C+3584+BH+Utrecht%0D+%7C+The+Netherlands&entry=gmail&source=g>
>  The
> Netherlands
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201%0D+%7C+3584+BH+Utrecht%0D+%7C+The+Netherlands&entry=gmail&source=g>
> |
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+3584+BH+Utrecht+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+The+Netherlands+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E&entry=gmail&source=g>
>  +31
> (0) 30 253 7637 <+31%2030%20253%207637> |
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Newtonlaan+201+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+3584+BH+Utrecht+%7C+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E+The+Netherlands+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3DNewtonlaan%2B201%250D%2B%257C%2B3584%2BBH%2BUtrecht%250D%2B%257C%2BThe%2BNetherlands%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E&entry=gmail&source=g>
>  *j.l.reyno...@uu.nl
> <j.l.reyno...@uu.nl>* | www.uu.nl/staff/JLReynolds/ | jreynolds.org
>
> My latest publication: “Climate Engineering, Law, and Regulation
> <http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199680832.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199680832-e-71>”
> in *The Oxford Handbook on the Law and Regulation of Technology*
>
>
>
> *From:* geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googleg
> roups.com] *On Behalf Of *Clive Hamilton
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 1, 2018 23:25
> *To:* Daniel B Kirk-Davidoff <da...@umd.edu>
> *Cc:* Douglas MacMartin <macma...@cds.caltech.edu>; geoengineering <
> geoengineering@googlegroups.com>; gunde...@miamioh.edu;
> brian.peter...@nau.edu; diana.stu...@nau.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [geo] Fwd: Geoengineering and Capitalism
>
>
>
> There's a bit more:
>
>
>
> Royal Dutch Shell was funding an ocean liming study
>
> Steve Koonin of BP chaired an expert meeting at Novim
>
> And if course there was the infamous statement by Exxon's Rex Tillerson
> that climate change is an engineering problem with 'engineering solutions'.
>
> See pp 77-8 pf Earthmasters.
>
>
>
> I haven't followed things closely for a couple of years, but I am not
> aware of anything more.
>
>
>
> Clive
>
>
>
> On 2 February 2018 at 09:05, Daniel B Kirk-Davidoff <da...@umd.edu> wrote:
>
> The Hamilton reference points to Haroon Kheshgi at Exxon-Mobil as an
> enthusiast of ocean liming as far back as 1995 and has having put out a
> report on stratospheric aerosol SRM.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 4:36 PM, Douglas MacMartin <
> macma...@cds.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> Sorry, couldn’t leave this alone…  I do find this sentence interesting:
>
>
>
> The second reason I’m surprised is it seems that the fossil fuel industry
> is supportive of GE, given that they fund many GE supporters (Hamilton
> 2013).
>
>
>
> The only connection I’m aware of between the fossil fuel industry and GE
> is that Lee Lane showed up at a geoengineering meeting in 2006.  Has anyone
> actually had their research funded by the fossil fuel industry?  Is there
> any support for that assertion?
>
>
>
> I’m also not sure what a “GE supporter” looks like, or whether I’ve ever
> met one (or indeed, whether such people exist in the scientific
> community).  I really do wish people would distinguish between “supports
> doing research so we can understand it” and “supports deploying it”.
>
>
>
> doug
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googleg
> roups.com] *On Behalf Of *Daniel B Kirk-Davidoff
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 10:11 AM
> *To:* geoengineering <geoengineering@googlegroups.com>;
> gunde...@miamioh.edu; brian.peter...@nau.edu; diana.stu...@nau.edu
> *Subject:* [geo] Fwd: Geoengineering and Capitalism
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I reached out to the authors of that paper on geoengineering and
> capitalism.   With their permission, I'm forwarding the conversation.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
> 35 Dove St.
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Albany, NY 12210
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 518-434-0873 <(518)%20434-0873>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Gunderson, Ryan* <gunde...@miamioh.edu>
> Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 12:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Geoengineering and Capitalism
> To: Daniel Kirk-Davidoff <dkirkdavid...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Diana Lynne Stuart <diana.stu...@nau.edu>, Brian Craig Petersen <
> brian.peter...@nau.edu>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
>
>
> You’re not boring me and I appreciate your suggestions and comments. I
> think this will be become one of the most important discussions of the 21st
> century. Though this may have to be my last email so I don’t distract
> myself from research too much.
>
>
>
> Regarding the intentions of GE advocates and GE as a fringe science: I’m
> surprised by your comment that most GE advocates identify as enemies of the
> fossil fuel industry. I’m surprised for two reasons. First, this is not a
> common theme in the case for GE. The research on framing is fairly
> consistent: economics and techno frames are core, though I understand that
> there are moral cases too. I wouldn’t be surprised if the frame you’re
> pushing catches on: GE-is-a tool-for-climate-justice-and-o
> pposition-to-it-is-a-reflection-of-privilege. Biotech pushes the same
> narrative. The second reason I’m surprised is it seems that the fossil fuel
> industry is supportive of GE, given that they fund many GE supporters
> (Hamilton 2013).
>
>
>
> One thing worth considering is that the concrete intentions of GE
> scientists are relatively unimportant. But this requires a distinction
> between subjective intentions and meaning-making, on the one hand, and
> unintended outcomes and social structure on the other. For example, in the
> unlikely case that every current GE scientist that reads our paper were
> convinced that GE is a tool for the reproduction of capitalism and
> detrimental to mitigation (though from your review of the listserv's
> reception, this seems very unlikely), I bet other bodies and minds will
> fill their roles for reasons argued in the paper. It may be a fringe
> science now but it will only grow along with GDP and the burning of fossil
> fuels. At the risk of sounding deterministic, I think SRM is almost fated
> if capitalism lumbers on, regardless of, or even in spite of, the
> intentions of GE scientists. To give a seemingly unrelated example. When I
> teach a class my intention is to foster critical thinking skills, to pass
> on facts about society and the environment, to get kids to look at the
> world in new ways, etc. But perhaps what I’m actually doing, despite these
> intentions, is creating the next generation of worker-consumers that are
> punished if they don’t show up on time and follow directions.
>
>
>
> Regarding jargon and style/polemics: I’m genuinely sorry to hear that the
> paper was cast off as jargony. We strive to make critical theory as clear
> as possible. It’s a difficult tradition to digest, but that's the nature of
> nearly all German philosophy and sociology. The distinction between essence
> and appearance is older than Plato, it just takes a slightly different form
> since Hegel.  Marcuse is firmly rooted in the Western tradition and
> committed to the goals of the Enlightenment. The “this is silly pomo crap
> so I’m going to read further” doesn’t fit. Historically, scientists have
> read philosophy closely. If Einstein could regularly quote Spinoza and
> Schopenhauer, I think GE scientists can take some time to think through new
> concepts and arguments (technology embodies values, these values are
> restricted by social structure, etc.). All GE advocates have an implicit
> theory of technology even if they never justify it and it is taken to be
> commonsense. Feenberg’s Questioning Technology is highly recommended for
> engaging in the very long conversation about what technology is, exactly.
>
>
>
> I admit it is a polemical paper and am saddened if it was not read closely
> due to the tone. However, I don’t mind if this just means it ruffled
> feathers. I would be delighted if political economy became a central
> concern of the GE debate.
>
>
>
> Regarding aid to the poor: Although this is an aside, it’s worth noting
> that aid given to poor countries, and the reasons capital interacts with
> poor countries at all, may be different than official narratives or our
> commonsense.  If interested, check out world-systems research and
> dependency theory. This is also a good example of why we should distinguish
> between subjective intention and structure, and what is possible and what
> is.
>
> Unless Diana and Brian object, you're more than welcome to forward our
> conversation to that GE listserv you mentioned.  It may help clarify things
> and, hopefully, encourage GE advocates to give it another read.  I assume
> you won't edit the conversation and the like.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Ryan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ryan Gunderson, Ph.D.
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Sociology & Gerontology
>
> Miami University
>
> rgsoc.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Daniel Kirk-Davidoff <dkirkdavid...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Ryan,
>
>
>
> You keep replying, so I'm going to take that as indication that I'm not
> boring you too terribly.  This is obviously out of my expertise, and I will
> not be offended when you decide that you've got better things to do.
>
>
>
> I'm not a supporter of implementing solar radiation management.  What I'm
> trying to accomplish in this dialog is to do my little bit to make the
> conversation about geoengineering as productive as possible.  I heard about
> your paper from a geoengineering email list that I skim but to which I
> rarely contribute.  It was received derisively, I think because many of the
> folks on the list who are geonengineering proponents view themselves as
> part of a fight against the fossil fuel industry's role in our economy, and
> saw your paper as a jargon-filled attack on the brave few willing to look
> at the world with clear eyes, etc. etc.
>
>
>
> At this point geoengineering is a fringe science activity.  If you wanted
> to slow it down, convincing a few of the small numbers of people involved
> to drop it, or somehow make it substantially more benign could have a big
> impact.  So I'm suggest you think hard about that audience when you write.
> That audience is probably more interested in SRM because they think it will
> help poor people than because they think it will allow unrestrained capital
> growth
>
>
>
> The industrial world does spend a few billion dollars every year "helping"
> poor farmers in various ways.  What if argument 2) is actually the stronger
> rhetorical argument for SRM than 1)?  Argument 1) is laughable- there are a
> whole lot of good substantive reasons about which you're well aware why a
> plan to emit CO2 indefinitely while continuously ramping up SRM would be a
> very dumb plan, even for the west (interruption risk,  ocean acidification,
> precipitation changes that might be harmful to rich countries, etc.).   But
> 2) (if it's true that SRM, on balance, and in isolation would help poor
> farmers) could be compelling, and its cost would be consistent with other
> "aid" efforts of the industrial world.  And it would have the "side"
> benefit of making global warming less damaging to the rich world, at least
> temporarily (leading to moral hazard).   So I think that understanding the
> appeal of geoengineering to its backers via argument 2) is very important,
> and understanding the truth of the underlying claim (that SRM would help
> poor farmers) is also very important.
>
>
>
> The moral hazard argument is very important to David Keith, at least, and
> he's thought a lot about it.  But I think understanding the social dynamics
> around that is really tough and potentially really interesting.  SRM would
> have real aesthetic downsides (hazy skies) that people with food in their
> bellies would notice.  Maybe if it were implemented it would act as a
> visible sign of the cost of carbon pollution that would make people in rich
> countries more, rather than less interested in rapid emissions reductions.
> I know that's speculative, but how much actual evidence do we have about
> how moral hazard works in this realm?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
> 35 Dove St.
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Albany, NY 12210
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 518-434-0873 <(518)%20434-0873>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 10:47 PM, Gunderson, Ryan <gunde...@miamioh.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> Again, I would actively support democratizing global climate governance.
> And I don’t doubt that my perspective is influenced by my social position.
> It’s an empirical question concerning what pathways and options would be
> chosen if power in decision-making was extended to the global public. An
> empirical question I hope I can see the answer to someday. My guess is
> mitigation, and I doubt we’d select the potentially catastrophic option.
>
>
>
> Critics of GE are not asking for a "perfect" solution.  We're asking for
> more mitigation efforts. (I’m sure you want more mitigation too, but you’re
> also likely aware of the moral hazard argument against GE.) Mitigation
> would require social changes. Drawing attention to these alternatives and
> attempting to locate pathways to these alternatives are some of the goals
> of our research.
>
>
>
> Another goal of our research is to explain why current structures carry on
> despite contradictions and the massive amounts of harm they cause. I think
> it is logical to make the case that GE will catch on precisely because it
> will act as a way to literally mask the problem and allow the system to
> reproduce itself.  For example, which of the following cases for GE do you
> think will have a real influence on those who will have the power to launch
> an SRM project?:
>
>
>
> 1) This is a cheap and easy technology that allows us to keep making money
> and pumping GHGs.
>
>
>
> 2) Let’s help the poor Bangladeshi farmers.
>
>
>
> You know the answer and Marcuse can help clarify why that’s the obvious
> answer - and asks us to figure out why it doesn’t have to be that way.
>
>
>
> Would you send me the articles in which geoengineering advocates
> incorporate a theory of how capitalism operates and explicitly denounces
> the role of capital in squandering mitigation efforts?  Of course I'm being
> a bit sarcastic and mean here, but I have never seen a take like this
> (though I’m happy to be wrong here).  Again, our piece is an attempt to
> thrust this issue in the discussion.
>
>
>
> One agreement we have is that GE may be the best system-maintenance
> strategy modern society can deliver.  If that's the case, I think the
> conclusion of our paper still holds.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Ryan
>
>
> --
> Ryan Gunderson, Ph.D.
>
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Sociology & Gerontology
> Miami University
>
> rgsoc.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Daniel Kirk-Davidoff <
> dkirkdavid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ryan,
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply.  I appreciate what I take to
> be your central point, that a false economy that values some people's
> suffering much less heavily that others undergirds a lot our discussions of
> all kinds of policy and especially climate policy.   But what if the
> impulse towards geoengineering comes not from an unconscious restriction of
> the range of thought to that consistent with a capitalist worldview, but
> rather from a despairing acknowledgement that the unjust arrangements of
> power have already prevented us from taking the steps that a  just society
> would have take 30 or 40 years ago that would have kept us from reaching
> the current dilemma?   I don't think that many of us in the climate science
> community are unaware of the role that capital has played in constraining
> real action to reduce carbon emissions.
>
>
>
> What if the objection to geoengineering comes from a perspective of wealth
> and entitlement that says any solution less than perfection, any solution
> that might expose pale-skinned northern rich people to a slight additional
> risk of skin cancer, can't be considered, even if it would relieve the
> suffering of millions of poor people caused by those pale skinned
> northerners?   So not only will we refuse to substantially reduce our
> carbon emissions at anything like the necessary speed, but we won't even do
> the barest cheapest bit to stave off sealevel rise that will inundate
> Bangladesh?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
> 35 Dove St.
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Albany, NY 12210
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 518-434-0873 <(518)%20434-0873>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Gunderson, Ryan <gunde...@miamioh.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Dan,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your email.
>
>
>
> 1) About capitalism and the alternatives: I'm sure you know that there was
> and is a lot of discussion about what kind of political-economic thing the
> Soviet system was, whether it was "state capitalist," a "degenerated
> worker's state," "communism," etc.  One thing that is certain is that that
> model was ecologically unsustainable too.  But very few people want to
> bring that model back.   Any growth-dependent economy is likely
> unsustainable.   The reason we emphasize capitalism as the underlying issue
> that needs addressing is that most of the world is under the dictates of
> capital and capitalism is growth-dependent for systemic reasons.  If you're
> interested in this argument, one of the best analyses to date is still
> Schnaiberg's 1980 "The Environment: From Surplus to Scarcity."  Some of the
> degrowth thinkers are pretty good about making this case as well (e.g.,
> http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/375/2095/20160383).
>
>
>
> 2) About being unfair to Keith: It goes without saying that we didn't
> intend for our analysis to be a personal attack on Keith.  As of the
> content of his arguments and how they're treated in our paper, two points
> are relevant.
>
>
>
> First, this quote may address most of your concern:
>
> "To be clear, our argument is not that economic and technological
> justifications for geoengineering are the only justifications, though, as
> shown in the literature above, economic and technological justifications
> are dominant modes of legitimation in the geoengineering agenda. We focus
> on economic and technological legitimations of geoengineering because we
> think these will register as the most valid and relevant justifications in
> policy-making and appeal to (a historically contingent) “commonsense”. We
> make the case that the prominence, validity, and relevance of these
> arguments can only be understood in a particular and contradictory social
> context."
>
> Like the other arguments we critique, we focus on Keith's economic and
> technological justifications.
>
>
>
> Second, we do acknowledge that Keith is very aware of the risks and is
> sometimes uneasy in his support.
>
>
>
> 3) Regarding the question about asking Bangladeshis about GE: My opinion
> is absolutely, there should be a much more democratic system of global
> climate governance, with GE likely being one proposal at some point.  This
> is a good entry point to speak to your comment about "appearance" and
> "essence," terms that I assume you're reasonably skeptical of due to their
> metaphysical haziness.  You're framing this choice as one between
> geoengineering or not geoengineering.  Are those the only options?  What
> else is *possible and more substantively rational *("essential")?   I can
> think of a handful economic policies and social programs that would be
> proposed in a more democratic governance of climate politics.  But this
> also means a willingness to ask Bangladeshis, in this example, all related
> alternative pathways in terms of mitigation and adaptation, not just
> "intervention."  In this example, this would include relocation to regions
> that are historically heavy polluters (i.e., that put them in their
> precarious situation in the first place) as well as having a say in the
> emissions targets of the first world.  If your response is "This isn't
> politically feasible," it is helpful to figure out why, exactly, this is
> not politically feasible.  That opens up what we think are some of the most
> important questions, many of which direct attention to undesirable power
> structures.  And many of which are ignored in the geoengineering debate.
>
>
>
> I hope this clarifies the paper some!  We really do appreciate your email
> and questions.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Ryan
>
>
> --
> Ryan Gunderson, Ph.D.
>
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Sociology & Gerontology
> Miami University
>
> rgsoc.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Kirk-Davidoff <
> dkirkdavid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Diana!
>
> Hi Ryan,  I look forward to reading your thoughts.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Dan
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
> 35 Dove St.
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Albany, NY 12210
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210518&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 518-434-0873 <(518)%20434-0873>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 11:50 AM, Diana Lynne Stuart <diana.stu...@nau.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Daniel,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your email. I have forwarded it to the first author of the
> article to respond.
>
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Diana
>
>
>
> Diana Stuart
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Sustainable Communities Graduate Program and
>
> School of Earth Sciences and Environmental Sustainability
>
> Northern Arizona University
>
> diana.stu...@nau.edu
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Daniel Kirk-Davidoff <dkirkdavid...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:48:44 PM
> *To:* Diana Lynne Stuart
> *Subject:* Geoengineering and Capitalism
>
>
>
> Dear Prof. Stuart,
>
>
>
> I enjoyed reading your recent article,  "A Critical Examination of
> Geoengineering: Economic and Technological Rationality in Social Context".
>  But I had a couple of questions about it.   First, I'm wondering what you
> think the definition of Capitalism ought to be.  I spent a little time in
> Hungary, Romania and East Germany before and just after the fall of their
> nominally Communist governments, and it seems pretty clear that a world
> where all governments were organized along those lines would have
> eventually reached high levels of atmospheric CO2.  It also seems hard to
> believe that those governments would have found it any easier to reduce the
> rate of material wealth accumulation for the sake of ecological health than
> our own.   So do we need a different word than Capitalism to describe the
> tendency  of human civilizations to prioritize growth over stability?
>
>
>
> Second, do you think you were fair to David Keith?  Full disclosure: he's
> a friend and colleague.  You quote him as saying the geoengineering would
> be "cheap and easy", but you don't address his actual moral arguments.  For
> example on page 139 of A Case for Climate Engineering, he points out that
> geoengineering and carbon emissions reductions "are not interchangeable
> alternatives."  Past emissions are already causing harms to present and
> future generations.  I'm working as hard as I can to help renewable energy
> replace fossil-fuel electrical generation (I forecast renewable generation
> for grid operators), but however hard we all work, at best we might get to
> much lower global levels of carbon emissions in 30 or more years.    If
> pumping aerosols into the stratosphere would cause more good than harm for
> poor farmers (by counteracting the carbon dioxide that industrial
> civilization has dumped into their atmosphere for the past 150 years),
> David's saying we have a moral obligation to do that,  while we also do
> everything we can to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.
>
>
>
> Why is that wrong?   Let's say we win the political argument next year,
> and in a beautiful revolution, lead the world to rapidly reorganize around
> meaningful work, sustainable agriculture, housing and transportation, open
> borders and  mutual cultural respect.  On that great day, wouldn't we still
> want to protect subsistence farmers in Bangladesh from the sea level rise
> and heat stress that CO2 we've already put into the air will cause?  If
> repurposing some military aircraft to put non-ozone depleting aerosols into
> the stratosphere  would accomplish that, why would Marcusian analysis argue
> against that?   Shouldn't we ask the Bangladeshi farmers?  If they wanted
> that step taken, would it because they were confused about appearance and
> essence?
>
>
>
> In solidarity,
>
>
>
> Dan Kirk-Davidoff
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
>
> Adjunct Associate Professor of Atmospheric and Oceanic Science
>
> U. Maryland
>
> Lead Research Scientist, AWS Truepower LLC
> 35 Dove St.
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+%0D+Albany,+NY+12210%0D+518&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Albany, NY 12210
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=35+Dove+St.+Albany,+NY+12210+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3D35%2BDove%2BSt.%2BAlbany,%2BNY%2B12210518%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E518&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 518-434-0873 <(518)%20434-0873>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
>
> Adjunct Associate Professor of Atmospheric and Oceanic Science
>
> University of Maryland
>
> College Park, MD 20742
>
> http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~dankd
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Daniel Kirk-Davidoff
>
> Adjunct Associate Professor of Atmospheric and Oceanic Science
>
> University of Maryland
>
> College Park, MD 20742
>
> http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~dankd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Clive Hamilton
> Professor of Public Ethics
> Charles Sturt University, Canberra
> www.clivehamilton.com
>
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-- 
Marie Skłodowska-Curie Individual Fellow, 2016-2018
School of Histories & Humanities, Trinity College Dublin
Email: ludl...@tcd.ie
Tel: (00353) 87 648 8078 <087%20648%208078>

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