Hi Stephen, I think the idea is great provided it is made clear that it is not attempt to re-do existing regulations on bunker fuel. The most dangerous thing is perhaps to reach agreement on something, then afterwards make withdrawal as this will have reflection on all future international agreements on pollution controls, including the greenhouse and CFC that can be pulled apart by countries withdrawing from their existing commitments and also making hope of any future agreement the harder as people become sceptical. As long as it is very clear that we attempt not to peel back existing ones but want to introduce salt or other environmentally harmless substances into the marine environment, it will be fine.
Veli Albert Kallio, FRGS Vice President, Sea Research Society Environmental Affairs Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Research_Society [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/Sea_Research_Society_logo.png]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Research_Society> Sea Research Society - Wikipedia<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Research_Society> en.wikipedia.org ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Stephen Salter <[email protected]> Sent: 18 August 2023 13:54 To: 'John Macdonald' <[email protected]> Cc: 'Stephen Salter' <[email protected]>; 'Chris Vivian' <[email protected]>; 'Ron Baiman' <[email protected]>; ''Eelco Rohling' via NOAC Meetings' <[email protected]>; 'Healthy Climate Alliance' <[email protected]>; 'geoengineering' <[email protected]> Subject: [geo] RE: [prag] RE: Request for Feedback: Open Letter Supporting Research on Three Responses to Warming Impact of Bunker Fuel Regulations John I think that it will depend on the rate of boiling. Sectiom18-83 of the Perry Chemical Engineers Hand Book has information about demister design. There is also stuff at https://marineengineeringonline.com/fresh-water-generator-or-evaporator-alfa-laval-type/ I worked on a desalination technique using energy from sea waves which required demisting. The design used a random packed bed of 10 mm diameter 10mm long stainless thin-wall stainless steel tubes but I was trying to stop all the salt. Stephen From: John Macdonald <[email protected]> Sent: 18 August 2023 13:25 To: Stephen Salter <[email protected]> Cc: Stephen Salter <[email protected]>; Chris Vivian <[email protected]>; Ron Baiman <[email protected]>; 'Eelco Rohling' via NOAC Meetings <[email protected]>; Healthy Climate Alliance <[email protected]>; geoengineering <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [prag] RE: Request for Feedback: Open Letter Supporting Research on Three Responses to Warming Impact of Bunker Fuel Regulations This email was sent to you by someone outside the University. You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email is genuine and the content is safe. That’s interesting Stephen. I has been my understanding that when saltwater is boiled, the steam that is produced is generally free of salt ie. that the distillation process of boiling water causes the water to evaporate, leaving behind impurities like salt and other minerals. I agree that input from the atmospheric physics community re the right salt mass would be welcome. John On 18 Aug 2023, at 9:36 pm, Stephen Salter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: John It would be a good idea to use free waste heat but boiling produces lots of salty bubbles which may contain more salt than we want. We would have to fit demisters and do some size selection. The right salt mass matters. I think it is 10^-14 grams but would like this confirmed by the atmospheric physics community. Stephen From: 'John Macdonald' via Planetary Restoration <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: 18 August 2023 12:22 To: Stephen Salter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: Chris Vivian <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Ron Baiman <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Eelco Rohling' via NOAC Meetings <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Planetary Restoration <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Healthy Climate Alliance <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; geoengineering <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Stephen Salter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [prag] RE: Request for Feedback: Open Letter Supporting Research on Three Responses to Warming Impact of Bunker Fuel Regulations This email was sent to you by someone outside the University. You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email is genuine and the content is safe. Hi Stephen and all Seawater could also be boiled from hot exhaust gases using heat exchangers. The pure steam plume could then be re entrained with sprayed seawater or fine dry salt powder to reintroduce particles necessary for CCN cloud formation. John Macdonald On 17 Aug 2023, at 9:32 pm, Stephen Salter <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi All Most ships use big Diesel engines. If we can make submicron drops of filtered sea water we can inject them into the hot gas of the exhaust manifold. The corrosion rate will not be greater than the former sulphuric acid. Stephen From: 'Chris Vivian' via Healthy Planet Action Coalition (HPAC) <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: 16 August 2023 10:17 To: 'Ron Baiman' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'healthy-planet-action-coalition' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; ''Eelco Rohling' via NOAC Meetings' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Planetary Restoration' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Healthy Climate Alliance' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'geoengineering' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: 'SALTER Stephen' <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: RE: Request for Feedback: Open Letter Supporting Research on Three Responses to Warming Impact of Bunker Fuel Regulations Ron, With regard to your second paragraph, you could include this graph from the Carbon Brief article by Hausfather and Forster (2023) in your reference list - https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-how-low-sulphur-shipping-rules-are-affecting-global-warming/. It could also be referenced in the second paragraph of the open letter: <image002.png> In the second point about sponsoring research I suggest you should delete ‘sulfur’ at the end of the 4th line and just leave it to refer to aerosols. Otherwise you are restricting the research to just substances containing sulphur and there may be suitable non-sulphur containing materials that could produce useful aerosols. With regard to Ron’s suggested 4th point, I think you should run it past a shipping person before including it as I think it has some potential problems including: 1. I doubt that “… space now needed for bunker fuel is sufficient for the less energy dense biomass”. 2. Ron says “Space now used for bunker fuel might be enough, but the huge multi-ocean cargo ships now using bunker fuels seem large enough to open up new space for biomass fuel”. I doubt that shipping companies would be willing to give up cargo space. Many have already had to accommodate Exhaust Gas Cleaning Systems. Best wishes Chris. From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Ron Baiman Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:20 PM To: healthy-planet-action-coalition <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Eelco Rohling' via NOAC Meetings <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Planetary Restoration <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Healthy Climate Alliance <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; geoengineering <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Cc: SALTER Stephen <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Request for Feedback: Open Letter Supporting Research on Three Responses to Warming Impact of Bunker Fuel Regulations Dear Colleagues, I would greatly appreciate suggested edits and comments to this proposed open letter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ewSMGl1bnh-umD86pT0x_2-EvaZUHbe1/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=116465941111195452408&rtpof=true&sd=true Most importantly, does the text and the three requests (one inspired by a comment from Stephen Salter) make sense, and is the overall descriptive language accurate? Thank you! Best, Ron Baiman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NOAC Meetings" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/noac-meetings/CAPhUB9BPaifrSK7A6v1WT8JZvHJGr-xO-KtHfyYk7XvKcpQF7A%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/noac-meetings/CAPhUB9BPaifrSK7A6v1WT8JZvHJGr-xO-KtHfyYk7XvKcpQF7A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Healthy Planet Action Coalition (HPAC)" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/healthy-planet-action-coalition/03b601d9d022%2457f59cc0%2407e0d640%24%40btinternet.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/healthy-planet-action-coalition/03b601d9d022%2457f59cc0%2407e0d640%24%40btinternet.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Planetary Restoration" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/planetary-restoration/LO2P265MB102173ABA0ABF8466819164BE715A%40LO2P265MB1021.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/planetary-restoration/LO2P265MB102173ABA0ABF8466819164BE715A%40LO2P265MB1021.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Planetary Restoration" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/planetary-restoration/73ADE2A0-CD89-41C8-BD22-C3C06A6CADB6%40icloud.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/planetary-restoration/73ADE2A0-CD89-41C8-BD22-C3C06A6CADB6%40icloud.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Is e buidheann carthannais a th’ ann an Oilthigh Dhùn Èideann, clàraichte an Alba, àireamh clàraidh SC005336. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/PAXPR05MB80486E3F4181BBD4351E9B5BA71BA%40PAXPR05MB8048.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/PAXPR05MB80486E3F4181BBD4351E9B5BA71BA%40PAXPR05MB8048.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/AS8P193MB1848F7D4083F3C956EA3108B901BA%40AS8P193MB1848.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
