(I'm posting the logs here because apparently there is no more news
space on the Geoserver.org confluence? Where did it go?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:
- Google soc
- 1.6.3 release and related bugs
- UI framework talk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

aaime: topics?
arneke: I guess I
groldan: not really
arneke: 'm interested in whether we have any potential GSOC applicants?
dwinslow: arneke: afaik we don't find out until the end of the 
application period
dwinslow: or if they bug us in person
arneke: right, but people who have contacted us seriously
arneke: the latter
aaime: no one contacted the list afaik
aaime: (nor me in private)
aaime: anyone else
aaime: got an alien contact this week?
arneke: ok, there's a 50% chance I have one
aaime: nice, topic?
arneke: he said the database backends for GeoServer
aaime: ah ,sql server
aaime: jdeolive, this would be for your new jdbc framework right?
arneke: cholmes was inclined to push him to GWC since I know him, but 
that would be his choice
jdeolive: aaime: i would think so... from what i coudl tell on the 
project description
aaime: hum, whatever, but the student must be enthusiast about whatever 
he's doing
aaime: so better have him on sql server if he loves to
arneke: and have a US work permit <- there's where the 50% comes in
aaime: (imho)
aaime: Oh, why is the US permit so important?
aaime: in person contact with the student is real nice
arneke: otherwise Google doesnt give you the scholarship
aaime: but lack of it did not stop successfull applications in the past
aaime: scholarship == ??
arneke: the USD 5000 students get to participate? ;)
arneke: stipend
aaime: they don't give that to non US students? that's a first for me?
arneke: good think you mentioned it, let me double check the eligibility 
page
groldan: borsa di studio
aaime: thanks groldan :)
groldan: :P
arneke: ah... crap. Thanks aaime: 
http://code.google.com/opensource/gsoc/2008/faqs.html#0.1_student_eligibility 

sigq: Title: Google Summer of Code - Google Code (at code.google.com)
arneke: "You   must also be eligible to work in the country in which 
you'll reside throughout the duration of the program, e.g. if you are in 
   the United States on an F-1 visa,"
aaime: so one can stay at home and be paid anyways, no?
dwinslow: that's how I read it
groldan: but you can't stay in Cuba
aaime: the problem seems to be raised only if you're resident in the USA 
with the wrong visa no?
aaime: I'd suggest to stay away from Tibet too
aaime: thought it's not in the list ;)
groldan: seems wise for the moment
arneke: yes
arneke: he's from romania
jgarnett: so working anywhere in the EU should be good for him?
arneke: well, he's a F1 student at Vassar, but will be graduating before 
that
arneke: jgarnett: you'd think, but they put extra restrictions on the 
newcomers
arneke: so it's back to a tiered society based on passport
arneke: anyway, I'm emailing him regarding the good newsx
aaime: cool
aaime: so release is scheduled for the end of the next week
aaime: any concern?
groldan: just ammount of issues...
aaime: yep, me too :)
aaime: I'm also a little worried about pissing off some users
groldan: how so
aaime: since a few issues have been postponed like 2 times
dwinslow: have the issues assigned to ivan been reassigned? i only see 
one with his name on it
aaime: dunno. I have seen that one and I raised the question
groldan: hmmm.. we could think of raising them up as blockers
groldan: you know which ones?
cholmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] è entrato nella stanza.
groldan: "release directory contains jars" is giving grief to sde users, 
for example
aaime: yeah, I guess it would be easier to decide which issues are 
harmless enough
groldan: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/GEOS-1682
sigq: Title: [#GEOS-1682] release directory contains jars - 
jira.codehaus.org (at jira.codehaus.org)
aaime: that we can move them to 1.6.4
aaime: Hi Chris, feeling better=
aaime: ?
groldan: jdeolive: do you think you'll be able to at least give some 
insight on it?
groldan: (I'm sure deleting that gt 2.0 arcsde jar would be fine for 
sde, but wonder about the others)
aaime: deleting the release/extensions/arcsde/gt2-arcsde.jar right?
groldan: for example, there's also a ojdbc14.jar
aaime: seems the thing to do from where I stand
jdeolive: groldan: hi
***mchua is trying to get a gsoc applicant in this channel atm, btw
jdeolive: i tried to look into that
jdeolive: but i awas not sure what the issue was
groldan: aaime: right
aaime: jdeolive, from what I can see
jgarnett: a bit confused? the the gt2-oracle jar should not "do 
anything" unless an ojdbc14.jar is around?
groldan: jdeolive: I commented on it after you told so
jdeolive: ahh, ok, let me look
aaime: the 2.4.x jar is being pulled from the dependencies
aaime: but there is also an old jar that is stuck in the release module
aaime: statically, as a file
aaime: and it gets included as well
aaime: probably we want to remove it
groldan: ok, given the oracle license is there I guess we can 
distribute? just wondering
aaime: Yes, we can redistribute now
jdeolive: ok... i understand now...
aaime: that's what we're doing at least
aaime: there are quite a bit of jars in the release/extensions dirs
aaime: that seems to be something we can pull from the dependencies
aaime: instead of having them in the relase directory
aaime: ojdbc14 is maybe the only one that we can't put in a repo
groldan: ok, makes sense
aaime: since it has to be accompained with a license
aaime: (can we put stuff with a license you have to read on a maven 
repo? I guess not?)
aaime: hum, maybe yes, look here: 
http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/com/oracle/ojdbc14/
sigq: Title: Index of /maven2/com/oracle/ojdbc14 (at repo1.maven.org)
aaime: or maybe not... just md5 files tehre?
groldan: indeed. Its only the pom pointing to the online license
aaime: yep: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MEV-496
sigq: Title: [#MEV-496] No jar for Oracle POM - jira.codehaus.org (at 
jira.codehaus.org)
Kred ha abbandonato la stanza (quit: "ta ta").
aaime: groldan, I guess you can kill the arcsde and mysql ones thought
aaime: and see what happens when you build the extension datastores zip 
files
jdeolive: i am trying that now
aaime: ah btw, not much feedback on the UI stuff
groldan: ok, actually I'm sure I have to delete that one. The issue were 
more due to not knowing how exactly the extensions are built
aaime: (and sorry for misundrestanding your mail jdeolive)
aaime: what other developers think?
aaime: people, you're gonna use whatever comes out of the analisys, so 
better participate actively ;)
jdeolive: aaime: no worries, it was more or less just me ranting... not 
much thought behind it :)
arneke: ah, UI
aaime: As we say it in italy, I put my hands forward
peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] è entrato 
nella stanza.
groldan: anyways, back to the topic, aaime do you know what those long 
delayed issues are
arneke: yeah, one sidenote, that I had started replying to
aaime: scripting? no thank you :) (but if I have to, oh well ok)
arneke: I think the current UI looks like it was designed by a Java 
developer
arneke: no offense ;)
aaime: no offense taken, you're really right
arneke: and if you need to understand Java in order to make the UI
arneke: then that will never change
aaime: but that's one of the points in my  reasoning. A java developer 
will have to mantain it
aaime: when we do new services
aaime: new datastores
arneke: ... true
aaime: new configurations
aaime: will we have a UI wizard doing all the changes?
arneke: or we can enlist people like tschaub... but I see your point
aaime: If we have the UI wiz ok, but we need to be sure we have a 
resident one
aaime: otherwise we would end up like the current UI
aaime: it's there, sort of works, but nobody can really touch it
jdeolive: aaime: from what i can see, a lot of the new frameworks (liek 
struts2) have "plugins" for doing ajax stuff, and other scripting stuff
jdeolive: might be useful to get us the best of both worlds
jgarnett: finding it hard to participate in this meeting; andrea I have 
a preference for GWT or Wicket (everything else looks like a compromise)
aaime: jgarnett, it's because it's not an organised meeting
arneke: ok, I retract my point, I also see you covered it more in your 
email than i first picked up
aaime: we're really chit-chatting
jdeolive: groldan: confirmed, we need to kill that jar in svn
jdeolive: the arcsde one
groldan: ok, only that one?
aaime: mysql too imho
aaime: jdeolive, ajax stuff can be done in two ways
jdeolive: so there is another connector that gets dragged in as a 
dependency?
aaime: I believe so, there should be
aaime: I mean, the mysql datastore needs one
groldan: repeat: I'm sure the arcsde needs to go, wondering about the 
others and if its a matter of just removing it/them or some config file 
needs to be touched
aaime: and it's open source
aaime: Oh hum, jgarnett si right, better get organised...
jdeolive: aaime: looking at the mysql artifact... i only see the 
datastore, and the connector
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: aaime 
ha scelto come argomento: 0) What's up 1) Extensions extra jars 2) UI
aaime: and we're not at topic 1)
aaime: the connector being the jdbc driver
jdeolive: right
aaime: but mysql datastore is using a newer driver than the one included 
in the extensions directory
jdeolive: ahh... ok
jdeolive: so
jdeolive: we should delete teh old one
jdeolive: and add the new one as a dependency so it gets dragged in 
properly ... ( i think )
aaime: Yeah, that's what I think as well
aaime: groldan, yes, I think some xml files have to be modfiifed
jdeolive: ok cool, and same goes for oracle?
aaime: in order to have the dependency be pulled from the repo?
aaime: oracle not, since the jar is not in the repos?
groldan: cool, so that issue is being worked out
groldan: andrea
aaime: yes?
groldan: you were worried about other ones
aaime: ah yes
groldan: for the release
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: aaime 
ha scelto come argomento: 0) What's up 1) Extensions extra jars and 
other 1.6.2 nasty issues 2) UI
aaime: just a sec
aaime: well, they are easy to spot
aaime: sort by key
aaime: 
http://jira.codehaus.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=ASC
sigq: Title: Issue Navigator - jira.codehaus.org (at jira.codehaus.org)
aaime: the frist ones have been moved over a few times
aaime: the one I was thinking about is 
http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/GEOS-1580
sigq: Title: [#GEOS-1580] Data properties unavailable after updating a 
shapefile and reloading the catalog. - jira.codehaus.org (at 
jira.codehaus.org)
aaime: thought there is also this one that has been marked critical: 
http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/GEOS-1373
sigq: Title: [#GEOS-1373] Postgis datastore queried with a fid filter, 
returns features with the same number but different fid - 
jira.codehaus.org (at jira.codehaus.org)
aaime: and I never really understood why
aaime: seems one that has little return and lots of work behind it
cholmes ha abbandonato la stanza (quit: ).
aaime: I saw Chris comment but seems like a problem in the analisys of 
the issue they found
aaime: or else I'm not understanding it
groldan: hmmm
aaime: as usaul the geoserver-wrap-o-matic solution is easy but ugly
groldan: I'm having a hard time trying to understand what exactly it is
aaime: well, the original issue there is that
aaime: when you ask for fid=states.15
aaime: the datastore will kill whatever is before the period
groldan: seems to be that if you send a fid filter over ft a, but the 
filter is b.1, b.2 you'll get a.1 and a.2 anyways?
aaime: so if you filter using hoolabaloola.15 you get the same result
aaime: yes
groldan: ok
aaime: but it's also a limitation of the fidmapper api
aaime: that is, the fid mapper does not have a way to say "I don't 
recognized this FID as valid, so don't include it in the sql"
groldan: aha
jdeolive: groldan: artifact issue should be fixed
aaime: an exception is over-reacting, blah.15 is a legitimate fid, 
should just not return anything
groldan: hmm... put arcsde on the list, though its not jdbc
***jdeolive is happy when he gets to remove binary jars from svn
aaime: yeah, everything that's using the typed fid mapper is affected
groldan: cool, thanks a lot
aaime: shapefile too
aaime: but as I noticed in the comments, I don't see an easy cure
groldan: jdeolive: you gonna commit? shall I close the issue?
jdeolive: groldan: done, and done
aaime: (port to trunk?)
groldan: great
jdeolive: aaime: done :)
TeddyBouch [EMAIL PROTECTED] è entrato nella stanza.
aaime: excellent :)
aaime: guys, time is flowing
aaime: can anyone of you make up a list of things you believe should be 
moved away to 1.6.4
aaime: and post it to the thread on the mailing list?
aaime: or else, make a list of the ones you absolutely want to keep
aaime: 38 issues are too many for the time we have left
aaime: imho
jdeolive: agreed
groldan: yeah, the second option better, so we have more freedom on what 
to trhow out
jdeolive: maybe we can get cholmes to go through and filter out
jdeolive: but having us pre-filter wont be a bad idea either
aaime: btw, jdoelive, isn't http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/GEOS-1618 
already fixed?
sigq: Title: [#GEOS-1618] pass describe feature type cite tests - 
jira.codehaus.org (at jira.codehaus.org)
aaime: yeah, we can build a list of suggestions
nickyg ha abbandonato la stanza (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset 
by peer)).
nickyg [EMAIL PROTECTED] è entrato nella stanza.
jdeolive: aaime: yes i thin it is
jdeolive: closing it
groldan: you resolved to get some testing from my side or mistakenly?
aaime: so coming back to the UI)
aaime: is there anything you'd love to see there?
aaime: any favourite web framework
aaime: ?
groldan: not flash
aaime: or favourite approach to make web apps independent of the framework=
aaime: what would you like to see?
aaime: don't tell me you don't have an opinions on web apps ;)
jdeolive: aaime: to be honest it think your requirements are good
jdeolive: what i am looking toward now
jdeolive: is the tech evaluation, the meat and bones stuff
groldan: not sure what to add to your email andrea
mchua: dwinslow: TeddyBouch is the gsoc student btw
jdeolive: i want to see what this stuff will actually be like to work with
dwinslow: mchua: ah, thanks
dwinslow: hi TeddyBouch
aaime: mchua, thanks, TeddyBouch, can you wait 10 mintues?
jdeolive: my decision will most likely be based on that
mchua: dwinslow: (for when you folks are ready)
aaime: eh, the thing that bothers me
TeddyBouch: Absolutely
aaime: is that the list I presented in the mail
aaime: is basically the same, point by point, that was used one year ago
aaime: and I alrady did some tech evaluations
aaime: but they weren't deemed satisfactory so
aaime: I'm a little desperate as to what I should do
jdeolive: right... but at that point
jdeolive: the ui was still far away... so i am nto sure many people gave 
your findings due course
groldan: you told you know how jira does its plugins, right?
jdeolive: now that the ui work is coming up... we will have to review it 
closely
jdeolive: also
aaime: groldan, xwork + freemarker
groldan: (I don't know how, but I've seen them being simple jars?)
jdeolive: a year old evaluation in the java web framework world is 
ancient :)
jdeolive: probably want to dust it off and shine it up
aaime: which brings me to the point
aaime: does anyone want to pick this up?
jdeolive: doing the evaluation?
aaime: yes
aaime: I've lost steam on this topic
jdeolive: what i think would work
aaime: it's becoming frustrating
jdeolive: is everyone chooses a technology.. perhaps the one they think 
they might like to use
jdeolive: and then each does their own litle mock application
aaime: If no one else wants to do it ok, no problem
jdeolive: witha  set of criteria layed out
jdeolive: i would like to do an evalutation yes
aaime: jdeolive, yes
aaime: sounds like a good idea
jdeolive: cool
jdeolive: so perhaps youa re done andrea
jdeolive: since the wicket one is complete
aaime: lmorandinini is cooking up a CooCoon prototype similar to the one 
I did with Wicket
groldan: ah
groldan: one thing for the ui
aaime: jdeolive, I studied Struts2 for the last 2 days
jdeolive: cool, someone can probably do struts2
aaime: but the lack of tools support is really killing me
groldan: I've got lots of browser timeouts waiting for the config to be 
applied
jdeolive: perhaps i can eat my own dog food and do a groovy one
groldan: wonder if more async jobs would be needed
aaime: groldan, I would say there is something wrong in a datastore if 
that happens?
jdeolive: agreed
groldan: it doesn't matter
***dwinslow points out he's had that problem in the REST config api as well
aaime: going anynch requires non trivial code?
jdeolive: i think the ui needs to be more careful about how it does io, 
when processing arequest
groldan: in this case is the sde server being hit through a sdl connection
groldan: so its slow
groldan: but can be anything else, having 250 ftypes, etc
aaime: uh, so the apply and save stuff should be handled like a bugzilla 
search page
jdeolive: groldan: perhaps this will make good criteria for an evaulation
jdeolive: see how the various frameworks handle these types of situations
groldan: yup, could be good
jdeolive: so stepping back...perhaps we should set up teh wiki page to 
start doign teh evaluations?
aaime: yes, why not
aaime: one is already there
jdeolive: cool
aaime: each one championing a different web framework
aaime: sounds fun! :)
jdeolive: let the games begin!! :)
***jdeolive feels like he is stepping into the colusseum
aaime: so is modularity still a strict requirement? Or do we allow 
frameworks that do not allow it too?
***dwinslow has 0 experience with web frameworks outside the current 
struts config stuff
dwinslow: but i'd be up for one if you guys have another framework in mind
jdeolive: aaime: i think so...
aaime: dwinslow, the first time is not always that good, this is the proof
jdeolive: or at least that is my opinion
milovanderlinde1 ha abbandonato la stanza (quit: Read error: 113 (No 
route to host)).
aaime: jdeolive, your opinion being? :)
jdeolive: that for choosing candidate technologies we drop that 
requirement for the time being
jdeolive: and consider it more in the final choice
aaime: hum, then GWT becomes a candidate
aaime: it was my second choice besides Wicket, but scapped it because it 
could not do pluggable UI
jdeolive: if soemone wants to do it :)
jdeolive: anyways, folks, i have to run, lets set up the wiki page and 
continue on teh mailing list
aaime: dwinslow, eager to try that one? ;)
dwinslow: it's supposed to work like swing right?
groldan: loosing modularity like in having single, separate module for 
the whole ui?
dwinslow: i've done swing before
aaime: yes, should be similar
dwinslow: i just found http://tapestry.apache.org/ as well, any 
impressions about that one?
sigq: Title: Tapestry - Welcome to Tapestry (at tapestry.apache.org)
aaime: that the api changes  a lot more than the gt2 one from release to 
release
aaime: this is the old UI page: 
http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOS/User+interface+modular+technology
sigq: Title: User interface modular technology - Codehaus (at 
docs.codehaus.org)
dwinslow: i could give GWT a try
aaime: it seems bowens already did quite a review: 
http://geoserver.org/display/GEOS/Google+Web+Toolkit
sigq: Title: Google Web Toolkit - Confluence (at geoserver.org)
aaime: but I guess you can refresh a lot that page
aaime: since GWT went throw one or two major relases in the meantime
dwinslow: that does look thorough
aaime: yeah, I did not remember that page being there at all! :)
jgarnett: aaime as per email; we just did a round of evaulation and 
ended up with GWT over Wicket.
jgarnett: But they were dead even; decision came down to team experience.
dwinslow: all right, so does that cover the UI discussion for now?
aaime: I guess so
aaime: jgarnett, yes, saw the mail, thank you
aaime: so some people in the team already used gwt in the past?
arneke: neva
aaime: ?
aaime: neva?
arneke: never
dwinslow: will there be a requirements page for the webapp 'colosseum' 
or are we just going to mimic the wicket demo?
aaime: ah, good one
aaime: I can try to make up one but
aaime: if we remove the modularity I'm not sure a demo is needed
aaime: thoght some impressions on how it did go in practice would be 
nice anyways
aaime: Ok, I'll try to come up with some requirements for tomorrow
aaime: ok?
dwinslow: sounds fine to me
dwinslow: jdeolive and groldan might have something to say?
groldan: I'm ok with it too
groldan: I mean, that modularity would be good, and also being able to 
run the service without ui, so the service and the service ui could well 
be two modules
aaime: yeah, sure
aaime: as long as the UI is pluggable I don't see the problem
aaime: the backend is already pluggable as is
aaime: only config and UI are non pluggable these days no?
groldan: and I'm ok with whatever fits both the java developer and our 
ui wizards (they'll make it pretty and functional after all, we'll add a 
couple combos from time to time)
aaime: groldan, I'm not sure there is such a thing ;)
jgarnett: back; sorry andrea - yes they had already used GWT previously 
and had learn the tricks of debugging etc..
aaime: but we can try to look for the UI graal :)
groldan: as a combo? or as a ui wiz?
aaime: something that is ok for both the java developer and the UI wiz
aaime: arneke, this reminds me of your comment
groldan: boh
arneke: yes :)
aaime: We could try to have a UI wiz help us making the initial cut of 
the ui
aaime: as a framework of css, layout and hints, suggestions
aaime: that we can play within when adding new UI pages
aaime: so that at least for some time we don't screw up completely
arneke: yeah,, but also have them a bit in on the worflow
aaime: yeah, thought the backing object model is what it is
aaime: so we can improve a lot for sure
aaime: but not completely change everything I guess
aaime: what I mean that usually the UI exposes all or some of the object 
model structures
aaime: so reconceptualizing the UI requires deep changes in the object 
model as well (usually, at least)
arneke: often, but sometimes it's indifferent
arneke: like the submit -> apply -> save
aaime: aaagh
aaime: horrible
arneke: it pretty nonsensical if you don't know how the stuff is stored ;)
aaime: but that requires changes in the underlying model
aaime: we ditch the submit apply save cycle
arneke: not really, the submit can be skipped
aaime: we also remove two levels of indirection
dwinslow: we can fake it out like i do for the REST api
aaime: in the model
arneke: and have apply + save
dwinslow: where 'fake it out' == 'apply and save in one step'
arneke: or that one
aaime: ok, but that does not make sense to me :)
aaime: it's a temporary solution, a hack
arneke: anyway, I'm just saying, we can always argue with the 
interaction person afterwards
aaime: in the long term if you remove it from the UI you really want to 
remove it from the object model as well
arneke: but knowing the program inside and out isnt always great for 
making UIs
aaime: I agree
aaime: what I'm saying is that ugly hacks excluded
aaime: this will bring a change in the object model ;)
arneke: ok :)
dwinslow: oh, well, if you want to exclude ugly hacks
dwinslow: that's different :)
aaime: grr... maintentace ==> no ugly hacks please ;)
aaime: I dream of one day when powering up the computer I won't feel 
sick by looking at the geoserver source code ;)
dwinslow: aaime: set your eclipse editor background color to black :)
aaime: and leave the foreground black too :)
aaime: (damn syntax highlight, I'll see something in any case)
dwinslow: turn your monitor off then }:]

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