Codehaus is down for me; emailing logs for now... 0) What is up 1) Geotools to UTF-8 2) build docs need updating 3) cameron as osgeo mentor
acuster: bad, bad build breakers! jdeolive: acuster: but arent you glad we have a build box back :) jdeolive: and this one might actually work acuster has changed the topic to: Doth thou darest and a topic? groldan [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered the room. acuster: since I can't get eclipse setup to look at the code, the presence of a build box is of less dramatic concern to me these days acuster: Gabriel! acuster: rgould, art thou in school or does thou have a gtbot available? groldan: hey jgarnett: hey jgarnett: acuster your point is good; I would not mind shipping a .classpath .project with our download jgarnett: (since that is the scariest part of using geotools right now) jgarnett: 0) what is up ***acuster slaps jody with a cold, wet herring and asks him to answer the comments on http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/HACK/Catalog+View acuster: oooh, there is one ***acuster reads jgarnett: #udig channel for that one acuster: acuster- failing to get eclipse 3.3 and m2eclipse to load the geotools modules correctly ***jdeolive has been playing with emf and xml all day jgarnett: jody - user interface reivew; almost done udig code sprint; going back in time to geotools 2.2 (so don't expect me on trunk for a while) groldan: build crashed with the following exception, did someone see this before? http://rafb.net/p/pAkPKr47.html acuster has changed the topic to: Doth thou darest add a topic? jdeolive: groldan: just noticed that... looking into it jdeolive: its in the middle of another build... lets see what happens groldan: ok... desruisseaux: martin - still doing IFREMER work. Also started to apply generic types on trunk as a background work (only org.geotools.resources and parts of org.geotools.util packages for now). desruisseaux: Note: applying generic types allowed me to spot one bug already. acuster: salut martin! desruisseaux: Hi Adrian acuster has changed the topic to: 0) What is up 1) Geotools to UTF-8 aaime [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered the room. aaime: Hi desruisseaux: Hello Andrea ***groldan needs to reboot, back in a minute groldan left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). acuster: okay, /me launches into martin's jira aaime: who's running the meeting? acuster: There are a couple of files in the code base that are ISO-8859 acuster: no one is running the non-meeting aaime: ah acuster: those files are mostly for simple non ascii caracters acuster: é and such aaime: of course a non meeting does not require a runner (or it requires a non runner?) acuster: there are so few it's almost a shame not to stick to ascii acuster: but since they are in people's names it's probably not elegant to drop the accents aaime: switching to utf8 would mean having something that re-encoders all of the files and sets a svn property? acuster: UTF-8 is the encoding to rule them all acuster: it can be done by hand acuster: it's actually pretty quick acuster: but it does mean that windows folk have to start paying attention desruisseaux: I have everything needed to reencode automatically. It is just a matter of gettign the okay. acuster: and I don't know how they do that desruisseaux: I think they will just ignore that. acuster: can you windows folk control the encoding of the files you commit? desruisseaux: If Windows folk don't touch the non-ascii character, they can just ignore this issue. desruisseaux: I have set this JIRA task as "minor" - I believe that few peoples will even notice. aaime: hmmm aaime: people on linux may notice acuster: desruisseaux, don't they have to commit the file in the same encoding? desruisseaux: No aaime: svn should handle that desruisseaux: "svn commit" as no notion of encoding. acuster: aaime, most linuces are utf-8 these days aaime: I know, but last time we played with encodings in geoserver desruisseaux: Andrea: I confirm: UTF-8 is now the default on many linux distribution. aaime: the only people that had poblems were the ones using linux aaime: we don't know why thought desruisseaux: Yes, because reading ISO-LATIN-1 when we expect UTF-8 don't work. acuster: as a linux user, I'm willing to suffer through the conversion problems desruisseaux: But reading UTF-8 when expecting ISO-LATIN-1 is not a problem. desruisseaux: So switching to UTS-8 should remove those issues (I believe) groldan [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered the room. aaime: hopefully acuster has changed the topic to: 0) What is up 1) Geotools to UTF-8 2) build docs need updating desruisseaux: running "mvn javadoc:javadoc" right now... acuster: so what's the resolution? a consensus? a vote? desruisseaux: Lets just wait a few days. If no body object on the JIRA task, I will process. desruisseaux: As said previously, I expect that most peoples will even not notice. desruisseaux: For NetBeans 6 users, NetBeans will adopt the new encoding automatically, thanks to NetBeans's Maven plugin :) desruisseaux: (without any action from NetBeans users) acuster: okay, next? acuster: jody, this is mostly for you acuster: the build instructions for geotools for eclipse users are out of date jgarnett: what is mostly me? acuster: they call for a 1.4 java acuster: well, you care jgarnett: ah acuster: about the docs acuster: :-) jgarnett: well I care about you too acuster acuster: I can't get any reasonable build with eclipse 3.3 and recent m2eclipses jgarnett: (just so you don't feel neglected) acuster: so I can't update the docs with reliable information aaime: m2eclipse -> the eclipse maven plugin? acuster: or I would do it myself jgarnett: so this is the developers guide that is out of date? acuster: one of the two acuster: q4m is the other aaime: I don't use it aaime: (don't use any maven plugin in eclipse) aaime: I always build from command line jgarnett: I don't use any maven plugin in eclipse either acuster: so how do you import and build? aaime: mvn eclipse:eclipse jgarnett: command line "mvn eclipse:eclipse" jgarnett: and then use file > import aaime: and build, only from the command line acuster: 3.3 is pulling in all of the geotools projects as a single upper level project aaime: ? aaime: not for me acuster: have either of you tried recently? groldan: how so? aaime: I'm using 3.3 groldan: I've tried just today aaime: I have separate projects acuster: so from a clean workspace, after mvn eclipse:eclipse you get lots of projects? groldan: and all over the weekend, as was setting up a new dev env aaime: (under the same project group for convenience, but the group itself is not a project, just a container) groldan: and had no problems groldan: yup acuster: okay, then my eclipse is hosed aaime: Yes... probably it's the maven plugin doing tricks on you groldan: a couple hours ago get a fresh checkout of trunk groldan: and run mvn -U install eclipse:eclipse ***acuster has tried, with, without, and every other way groldan: with no incidents acuster: good groldan: hmmm... you on linux? maven 2.6? acuster: maven 2.5 aaime: should not make much of a difference acuster: yes, on gnu ***acuster blows away his eclipse and tries again acuster: regarless, the topic is that the developer guide needs love for the required jvm aaime: you do have a .project and a .classpath in each module right? groldan: (acuster is nice, we all should get used to call it gnu) acuster: are we done? aaime: guess so jgarnett has changed the topic to: 0) What is up 1) Geotools to UTF-8 2) build docs need updating 3) cameron as osgeo mentor jgarnett: Cameron offered to help mentor us jgarnett: but he attached some conditions jgarnett: (like that we make a plan to finish in 6 months) jgarnett: it has now been several weeks; we are all busy and OSGeo is not a priority for anyones day job. jgarnett: so is OSGeo going to happen? jgarnett: (hint: absolutly nobody replied to camerons message) aaime: What still needs to be done? jgarnett: ask the PMC aaime: I am PMC, I don't know acuster: 1) decide how to solve the intractable lack of a copyright assignment document aaime: you are PMc too, you tell me :) acuster: 2) provenance review redux and fixed jgarnett: well that I think is the problem; the PMC are supposed to do this (our representative is only our point of contact for OSGeo; not the person doing the work) desruisseaux: It seems to me that the main blocking point is the copyright assignement, isn't it? jgarnett: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/GeoTools_Incubation_Progress jgarnett: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/GeoTools_Provenance_Review jgarnett: (that describes what needs to be done) jgarnett: well we also have to redo our providenance review; should be faster the second time acuster: btw, cholmes is working on the copyright assignment---giving Heather one last go and then turning to the Software Freedom Law Center for help jgarnett: but we also need a mentor; or we need to let our slot go so another project can get in acuster: jgarnett, there are slots? jgarnett: that is good news acuster; I was not aware jgarnett: there are slots jgarnett: also as one of the initial project we are supposed to figure out the process jgarnett: (so later projects have an easier go of it) desruisseaux: I assumes that once the copyright assignement is done, the remainding should be easier to do? acuster: also, i'm not going to put any more work into generating a Copyright assignment. I've done all I can do with little encouragement from OSGeo. jgarnett: acuster++ thanks muchly CameronShorter [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered the room. desruisseaux: Hi Cameron! CameronShorter: ping acuster acuster: the only alternative is to find and hire a lawyer myself but since it's a document for OSGeo even that approach is likely to fail jgarnett: I agree; the reason we joined OSGeo was for help with this sort of thing CameronShorter: ah - have I dropped in on a meeting? acuster: speak of the mentor, himself! acuster: Salut Cameron jgarnett: the fact that it is like pulling teeth I think is only due to it being a new foundation jgarnett: see the topic (you are agenda item #3) acuster: it's also that somehow they don't value this legal stuff too much jgarnett: which is odd since that was the reason they were founded; ie give auto desk a bit of a legal shell game acuster: whereas, it was the main motivator for geotools, if I understood things correctly jgarnett: we want in on the legal shell jgarnett: well that and I think we wanted to meet the rest of the community (at least I did?) acuster: but The topic is about Cameron and if he is willing to mentor us, we should welcome him with open arms desruisseaux: +++1! jgarnett: Cameron gave us a list .... desruisseaux: I didn't replied because I though that the blocking issue is copyright assignement, and I feel powerless on this issue. desruisseaux: Once we have copyright assignement, I can take care of other issues like code review for some modules. desruisseaux: (I means for the module I'm familiar with) jgarnett: As a mentor, I'd be looking to see: jgarnett: 1 A goal to be graduated within 6 months. Less would be better. jgarnett: 2 A plan showing what needs to be done and who will be doing it. T jgarnett: 3 A plan for addressing legal review. jgarnett: 4. I'm expecting my involvement to be ~ 1 hour / week reviewing OSGeo related documentation. jgarnett: (that was cameron's list) acuster: since the legal stuff is out of our control, I don't see how any deadline works. jgarnett: I am with martin; I feel stuck on (c) stuff; so I am not confident in being done in 6 months jgarnett: I think we should look at a back up plan for the legal stuff acuster: so if we give up on that we can be done in a couple of weeks CameronShorter: From my outsiders point of view, there seems like there geotools needs to relax its high level expectations, and OSGeo needs to spend more time addressing legal issues for everyone. acuster: CameronShorter, what levels of expectations? jgarnett: ask cholmes for help? ask FSF for help? Ask codehaus for help? Or just state osgeo is failing its mandate and drop out in 6 months. jgarnett: cameron I am not sure we have expectations; we would like a discussion with someone from OSGeo so we can know what to expect? acuster: CameronShorter, I have minimal expectations of a legal document: 1) it should broadly do what it sets out to do 2) it should not be visibly WRONG CameronShorter: I'm happy to help push OSGeo for legal backup as I think it is an important issue. jgarnett: cameron when we got a first draft from OSGeo; the Autosoft layer to explain was already gone off the project. And it only described what code contributors had to give up acuster: OSGeo as a foundation should have 2 doc bundles: one for licensing, one for copyright assignment. jgarnett: apparently we were supposed to trust the OSGeo charter for our concerns (ie that the software be open source) CameronShorter: I understand that it is hard to put a deadline on something we don't control. But it also helps to set an expectation that everyone (including OSGeo) can work to. jgarnett: but we did not find that out until later. jgarnett: acuster: I think this is the other part of the communication trouble acuster: how about this, we will agree to any deadline the OSGeo board agrees to? :-) jgarnett: *we* are OSGeo and as one of the initilal projects it is up to us to come up with those 2 doc bundles. jgarnett: well the deadline was cameron's acuster: jgarnett, I have absolutely, completely tried to *be* OSGeo jgarnett: I know acuster: but I have failed CameronShorter: Ok, let's draw a line in the sand (6 months) and invite OSGeo to meet it if we meet it too. acuster: if we were a real entity, we would have solved this in one month with a few thousand dollars of legal work jgarnett: So Cameron do you have any advice? I am not sure a deadline is the best approach. jgarnett: Asking to attend a board meeting maybe? CameronShorter: As a starting point, I'd like to archieve these discussions. Can we please set up a geotools-osgeo email list. jgarnett: I have found that the delay between asking Frank; Chris (or now Paul?) to bring up any questions is much too long for open source development. jgarnett: By the time we get the answer two months have gone by; and we no longer care (ie we are trapped in some fun debugging task instead) jgarnett: Cameron we can place them on the osgeo wiki CameronShorter: I'd like to get my head around the problem, then go to the board, cap in hand with a well defined goal, and job assignments and ask for legal funding. jgarnett: Actually I would like to try a different approach acuster: what do you need "to get your head around the problem"? jgarnett: as long as it is a funding request they are really scared to say yes jgarnett: I think I would like to try talking to the board first. jgarnett: ie get agreement/understanding jgarnett: and then ask for someone legal to write it up CameronShorter: I haven't read any of the docs from OSGeo yet. acuster: "the problem" is that OSGeo needs a copyright assignment document that makes sense. CameronShorter: Or the geotools legal drafts. jgarnett: So for this meeting we need two things acuster: CameronShorter, do you have copies? jgarnett: a) to accept cameron's offer to try and help us for 6 months jgarnett: and a PMC representative (in case the OSGeo foundation has questions they need someone to talk to) CameronShorter: acuster, I might have copies, but am not sure where they are. Could you please resend. acuster: sure, I'll send you a re-cap of the history CameronShorter: A wiki is a good idea. acuster: actually I'll send it to the list for posterity CameronShorter: Someone, Chris? suggested that we shouldn't clog the devel list with legal crap. ***acuster did CameronShorter: (And it would be easier for me to not have to sift the devel list for the info I'm interested in) jgarnett: well we also got specific legal advice not to communicate this stuff on the email list jgarnett: because it could come back to haunt us acuster: but I can add the subject line "Recap of a year of legal crap" to scare everyone away from reading the message itself jgarnett: (so no archive cameron) acuster: what? CameronShorter: ah - ok. acuster: jgarnett, where did that come from? zool [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered the room. ***acuster laughs at the thought acuster: zool! jgarnett: from the origional osgeo legal guy CameronShorter: Legal and OS are like milk and orange juice. jgarnett: some of the questions we had ***zool pops in, i am a bit sleepy though jgarnett: did not have good answers jgarnett: and the advice was to be quiet and not borrow trouble ***zool shushes acuster: developing a copyright assignment document does not involve any external legal implications CameronShorter: I'm not sure we should take the legal advice. ***acuster thinks the advice is either misunderstood or rediculous acuster: at least for this issue jgarnett: agreed; it was for a different issue ***acuster will flag all his emails with the keyword LEGAL so everyone can ignore them jgarnett: acuster you have done a good job at trying to represent us over the last while CameronShorter: I'd like to have a clear direction set out, (think project plan) which everyone can see, and we can tick off actions as we go. A wiki would do the job. Could possibly be done in JIRA too. jgarnett: we need to grab another volunteer. jgarnett: cameron the iccubation process gives us this list jgarnett: we have been ticking it off. CameronShorter: acuster. Good idea on the LEGAL tag. CameronShorter: Jody, ok. acuster: CameronShorter, sorry, you are coming very late to the party. There is *no* work left to do. jgarnett: I think I may prefer a general OSGEO tag ;-) CameronShorter: acuster, then what is required to graduate? acuster: OSGeo needs a document (or several depending on what lawyers think). we need to sign. we need to do a final review of the code and done. acuster: if cholmes can get through to Heather and get her on course the document should happen zool: from an osgeo perspective *no-one* was happy with the work done on/from acuster's work by heather CameronShorter: Ok, lets write that down. Go public with how close we are to finishing, and who is on the critical path (legals?) acuster: CameronShorter, we have been in this state for a year now. CameronShorter: So OSGeo and others can see they are blocking. acuster: so it doesn't occur to us to make a big announcement zool: i think she should be abandoned as a route and alternate legal advice sought zool: chomes was also at the meeting thids was sidi zool: sucssed at and i think will have more context zool: does this correspond to you guys' picture of reality? acuster: okay, can we formally contact the SFLC? CameronShorter: SFLC? acuster: The alternative, for geotools, would be to assign copyright to the FSF europe zool: sounds great! go for it! acuster: they have a document ready to go zool: software freedom law something acuster: but that would require a re-focus on our part zool: and you're happy with that document acuster? then can we all just use it? :) acuster: Software Freedom Law center jgarnett: I think we are a little bit caught between different legal systems jgarnett: ie the OSGeo legal people are from the US ***zool nods acuster: zool: the advice you received from Heather was that OSGeo should not become a fiduciary of all of us jgarnett: and are terrified of being sued zool: well, there aren't osgeo legal people jgarnett: patents jgarnett: and whatnot zool: there's a lawyer brought in as a consultant by ADSK who is not even in house there, is billing them and has been undertaking work without consultation jgarnett: It is also worth pointing out that we are all ready covered by a foundation acuster: zool, so you probably can't just adopt the FSF eu document jgarnett: codehaus has backing jgarnett: so we don't need OSGeo. zool: er i hope i am allowed to say things like that about lawyers on public irc channels :/ zool: it would be great if we could *all* get international pan-org conensus about what makes legal sense on this, and real helpfu to others in the future ***zool nods acuster: and the FSF eu doc is merely a start. They are revising it periodically acuster: but OSGeo is *much* more complex a setup than the FSF acuster: since each project can have its own terms zool: well, i am sorry that you guys wind up feeling as if you have been jerked around over this, enough to want to leave the foundation acuster: No! zool: why is is that much more complex? weird requirements? or just the lack of a followable process wel documentedup from? acuster: no one *wants* to leave the foundation acuster: please, don't start that misunderstanding zool: right, rather than sign all one FLA of the type you could become happy with acuster: ? CameronShorter: acuster, this info is worth documenting in our list of issues and work off plan wiki. zool: apols, a bit of UMTS lag here CameronShorter: So OSGeo can see that it is on the critical path. zool: acuster: ah, i am overreacting, good zool: yes, please help us, Cameron CameronShorter: I'm in, if I'm welcome. aaime: you are seven [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered the room. jgarnett: nifty ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ _______________________________________________ Geotools-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geotools-devel
