Read this for a: - review of what has happened - idea - we should just update the headers for the next release - idea - we should create a PMC list
When codehaus comes back I will post this as a news item. Jody zool: i don't mean to be thrashing through stale water, only what with all the *past* comms problems i dont know what is common knowledge and what is not... zool: yay acuster: and we are all very sorry that this was too much of a struggle for Frank. jgarnett: yawn; it has been so long cameron that a summary would do everyone good ;-) jgarnett: I think it was more that Frank felt a conflict ***acuster will undertake a summary jgarnett: he held the legal purse strings jgarnett: but was also mentoring us. acuster: (wohoo! a clean geotools with tests and all) CameronShorter: Thanks acuster, that will help me with any OSGeo lobbying I need to do. hobu [EMAIL PROTECTED]/member/hobu] entered the room. CameronShorter: Is there a PSC email list? CameronShorter: Or list of PSC members? aaime: nope seven: Ah. Get one going. aaime: so far PMC has been working completely in the open seven: Open public maling list. CameronShorter: If legals have been advicing PSC to be secretive, then I'd like to be able to talk to the PSC secretively until we can reverse legal advice. aaime: Frankly I don't know what the legals advice has been acuster: CameronShorter, i don't think that advice was real. Maybe jody is thinking of something else jgarnett: contacted you offline jpfiset left the room (quit: ). jgarnett: the adivce to work offlne was for one issue. aaime: ok CameronShorter: Right, jody explained to me offline. jgarnett: as long as the PMC have an understanding about that issue jgarnett: I think we can do everything else in the open. jgarnett: if any PMC is feeling out of the loop please IM me CameronShorter: I'd like to discuss it with the PSC (probably via email thread) CameronShorter: not archieved. CameronShorter: Ok, so actions here are: CameronShorter: acuster to write a wiki of issues. ***seven asks whether you are still looking for a board member to do anything here? Else I will just lurk on. CameronShorter: Cameron to read up on legals to be sent to me by acuster. jgarnett: seven I would like to talk to the board jgarnett: next time you have a meeting seven: Nov 2nd jgarnett: I would like to make sure that this is expressed as a "understanding needed" jgarnett: rather than "please fund legal advice" CameronShorter: The wiki should include a list of steps to graduation. desruisseaux: I would really like to stay for this discussion because I'm very interrested in OSGEO, but I really have to leave now otherwise I will be stick outside. Many thanks to Cameron, as well as Adrian and Jody for taking care of this important issue. Bye all desruisseaux left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007090421]"). jgarnett: seven jgarnett: does OSGeo have a charter now? CameronShorter: Is this a weekly meeting timeslop? seven: Huh? jgarnett: a charter seven: jgarnett: Sure we have. acuster: CameronShorter, yes, we are twenty minutes over jgarnett: a why and what of what the foundation does jgarnett: where; no link on the website ***seven looks for it CameronShorter: Ok, I can turn up at NOW-45mins next week. CameronShorter: 05:30 for me. ***seven first adds Joda wants to talk to the board of Jedi. aaime: ha ha aaime: we are mixing star wards and star trek voyager here :) aaime: (wars) jgarnett: thanks for waking up early cameron acuster: groldan, here? acuster: groldan, do you set M2_REPO in eclipse? aaime: yes, we usually set it by hand CameronShorter: jgarnett, can you please email me list of PSC email addresses? jgarnett: on the wiki (in the developers guide!) CameronShorter: ok aaime: (there is another mvn something that creates a workspace with that one already set, but I find it quicker to do it by hand) jgarnett: anyone logging this meeting? seven: Hrmpf. Are you not logged yet? groldan: acuster: yes, sorry. I've set M2_REPO acuster: our bot is missing these days seven: If you want to have it logged automatically just let gary sherman know ***acuster has logs though groldan: I've lost part of the meeting, so can't post acuster: seven, the whole channel? That would be cool jgarnett: acuster do you want to post? or should I? seven: Sure. http://logs.qgis.org/ acuster: go ahead if you have bandwidth CameronShorter: If you set up a reliable bot for #geotools, could you please set one up for #mapbuilder too. jgarnett: cool CameronShorter: the #mapbuilder bot keeps falling over. jgarnett: I found the section of the OSGeo bylaws that covers what we needed "To further the goals of the corporation and to ensure that the assets of the corporation are utilized for public benefit, all software whose development is managed by the corporation shall be released under a software license that is designated by the Open Source Initiative (OSI) as one that satisfies the OSI’s requirements for Certified Open Source Software." aaime: the gt2 one is dead too jgarnett: not sure that bylaws have legal weight... jgarnett: but we can always trust! CameronShorter: I can't see anything wrong with the above bylaw. Am I missing something? jgarnett: yeah jgarnett: it is a bylaw jgarnett: ie a rule that the foundation uses to manage itself jgarnett: not a organizational charter ***seven wonders whether she missed something. What was the point? Maybe you could let me know the link to the log of thsi chat to help me understand. jgarnett: ie the only thing it can do is kick members out of the foundation jgarnett: (like a professional organization) jgarnett: I am posting now; but most of the "chat" happened over a year ago CameronShorter: Jody, I still can't see why that effects geotools? jgarnett: basically we are developers; asking the foundation how to go about putting a (c) on our code jgarnett: the trick is the (c) says "Open Source Geospatial Foundation" jgarnett: and hense we need the foundation board to dictate the terms acuster: s/says/will say jgarnett: and since we are the first project to do this jgarnett: nobody has any clue. seven: Oh, I have clues. Loads of them. :-) jgarnett: The initial cut was a "code contribution" agreement; but we did not understand it. jgarnett: (ie it was one sided and said what we the developers were giving up when we contributed code) seven: Problem is we do not share he same clued yet. jgarnett: we were later told that the other half of the agreement; ie to make the code available as open source ***seven corrects: Problem is that we do not share the same clues yet. jgarnett: was to be in the charter seven: Ah, OK. jgarnett: but by then 6 months had gone by and it was too late. seven: But there is an easy solution to this., jgarnett: in the mean time acuster found different legal document / wording etc... ***acuster watches jgarnett open old wounds jgarnett: in which both parties; code contributor and OSGeo foundation seven: Whenever the OSGeo does someting wrong there is always thpossibility to branch code. jgarnett: write down what they are about. jgarnett: this phreaked the osgeo legal council out jgarnett: so in addition to old and new wounds jgarnett: (mostly for acuster and frank) seven: So what you are really talking about is the project itfself. Community, name, etc. Branding. jgarnett: we are gradually communicating jgarnett: but only every 6 months jgarnett: seven we are only talking about code (c) jgarnett: and the header on our files seven: Oh come on. seven: Just do it. jgarnett: the sad part is that seven: I cannot believe it. seven: :-) jgarnett: we express things in terms of "legal help please" seven: Be happy. jgarnett: rather than "Talk to us please" CameronShorter: Ok, these blocking issues "OSGeo changing charter" need to be listed in our wiki work off plan so everyone can see where we are stumbling. First we find the bug, then we can fix it. seven: It is much easier. jgarnett: so it becomes a funding question by the time the board see it jgarnett: which was not our intention. seven: Thank you. jgarnett: seven we are happy; but we are also not making much progress. seven: I can see that. jgarnett: seven we could just do it; but we are trying to a) be a good origional member project and figure it out for others later b) be kind to osgeo board and not too pushy acuster: jody, i thought we had solved all these problems jgarnett: acuster I was doing the review seven: Cool. seven: So all the problems have been discussed. Then we can go on and do things. jgarnett: I still have not heard back on where the board is at; seven: From what I gather that will be the 2. Nov. jgarnett: sounds good. jgarnett: IRC meeting? or conference call ... acuster: OSGEO NEEDS A COPYRIGHT ASSIGNMENT DOCUMENT --- that is all seven: The board thinks that you made great progress and is eager to do whatever is required to get you through the process. acuster: how do we get one? CameronShorter: I'm guessing from all the extra information that keeps coming out, that the first cut at the wiki will only be a start. And lots of extra issues are going to creep into the work off issues/plan. seven: There is no budget for legal advice by a paid for laywer (yet) - (i.e. the board does not see the need to employ one to solve this problem) jgarnett: interesting... acuster: does the board not see 'getting a copyright assignment form" as an issue? seven: Maybe the board is still ignorant to the dimension of the problem to the GeoTools project. jgarnett: well the board has had two people on it familiar with the issue jgarnett: Chris Holmes jgarnett: and Frank seven: From the board's perspective it does look a little like an artificial problem (that the pure pragmatic Frank failed upon). acuster: geotools would like to have a copyright assignment form so developers could assign copyright to OSGeo seven: that 'even' the pure pragmatic Frank failed upon... acuster: seven, it would be nice if the board told us that CameronShorter: Seven, sounds like it. Lets get all the issues out in the open. So we can see the blocking issues. acuster: what's the artificial nature of the problem? seven: acuster: Take my word for the board's opinion for the time being. acuster: sure ***acuster is trying to understand acuster: what's the "artificial" part? seven: Whenever it is my personal opinion I will indicate that. acuster: does the board feel it has a copyright assignment document? ***seven is a little slow, giev her some time - and sorry to be late to this meeting jgarnett: Or does it feel we should just pick up any document from the OSI list? jgarnett: seven; this communication here is *exactly* what we have been missing ;-) acuster: jgarnett, OSI has documents? seven: Yes, the board thinks that if you change the copyright in the code to "OSGeo" (+ add some formal text, we have to look where that is now) jgarnett: They at least have one document; this list of OSI approved licenses. seven: Right. seven: Oh? Are you still looking for what license to choose? jgarnett: cool; so the missing part seven is which body has the mandiate for this jgarnett: ie is OSGeo going to produce this (c) header; and code contribution agreement seven: I thought you were stuck on GNU LGPL? acuster: seven, can you repeat that please? your last was not a formal sentence: "the board thinks..." jgarnett: or is the GeoTools PMC going to produce it jgarnett: and OSGeo live with it? acuster: seven we have a preferred license, indeed lgpl seven: Cool. Kepp it. seven: Keep it, ... jgarnett: and what we don't have is a code contribution agreement (am I right acuster? or do we have one now?) seven: Q: You do want to have a cla that developers physically sign. Sort of perform the "legal ritual". acuster: we have no documents which (1) assert the contributions are legal (2) assert the contributor wishes their code to be contributed (3) assigns formal copyright (not a license) to anyone jgarnett: acuster this is fun; I am glad I took the year off. Thanks for taking the wounds. seven: Add some ? please to the above jgarnett: seven we were told that we had to do the legal ritual; jgarnett: and send the documents to frank for safe keeping. seven: Who did? acuster: seven: yes, we hope to have a formal document each contributor signs jgarnett: Frank told us that. jgarnett: from the board. ***seven tries to think back when this was required by anybody? acuster: seven: we hope that the bulk of the code could thereby become formally copyright by OSGeo CameronShorter: Jody, Mapbuilder doesn't get CLA from developers. jgarnett: seven I have some email with the osgeo legal represenative seven: OK. seven: Argh. seven: Yes. jgarnett: Cameron seven: That one. acuster: seven: enough so that OSGeo could re-license in the future and represent our interests in a legal forum jgarnett: who is Mapbuilder? ie do indivudals hold (c), is Mapbuilder incoroperated in the states? etc... seven: acuster: Very good. CameronShorter: Mapbuilder is owned by contributors. jgarnett: and GeoTools woudl be owned by OSGeo foundation jgarnett: hense the difference ***seven cringes, MapBuilder obviously has the same issue... acuster: seven: does the board feel it has such a document? jgarnett: acuster++ points for persistence! CameronShorter: Mapbuilder didn't get a legal review, despite our requests for it. acuster: jgarnett, correction Geotools would be a mix of (c) OSGeo and licensed code jgarnett: actuall seven++ points for persistence as well (thanks so much for this discussion) acuster: jgarnett, because some have indicated they will not sign a document in any form jgarnett: acuster I think for that code we will need to cut it out of the library jgarnett: or rewrite it seven: Well. Up to now the board never really had the need to wave a document (you know, kind of a piece of white paper with silly signs on them) at people. acuster: jgarnett, we presume that the bulk will be (c) OSGeo and therefore be sufficient for the legal needs jgarnett: (sad but true; I already removed a lot of code during the providence review) seven: acuster: ++1 seven: jgarnett: Good. Slim code base is sexy. acuster: seven, does this appear absurd as a setup? CameronShorter: There was a strong arguement by Eric Raymond (ESR) ~ 1 year ago that CLAs are not required (although not tested in court) acuster: seven, the board indicated, by producing an earlier draft of a copyright licensing agreement, that it wished to allow projects to set themselves up in this way. Is this still true? acuster: sorry seven: Yes. seven: Don't be sorry, everything fine. acuster: s/copyright licensing agreement/copyright assignment acuster: they are completely different things CameronShorter: Autodesk lawyer disagreed with ESR, but I understand that OSGeo went with ESR's advice. jgarnett: that is news to me jgarnett: perhaps I should read the board meetings seven: We are not talking to an Autodesk lawyer at this moment. acuster: note to all we are discussing Copyright assignment NOT Copyright licensing jgarnett: okay; understood seven: acuster: +1 seven: OK. Slowly please, for an old girl. I ask questions, you answer. acuster: so seven, you said earlier that the board felt geotools was being unreasonable. could you flesh that out please? seven: You (every developer that goes into code and edits the copyright in the header) assigns OSGeo as copyright holder. seven: acuster: later acuster: ok seven: Thats it. seven: :-) groldan left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). seven: Now: seven: Where is your problem? acuster: how do we do that? acuster: how does a user of geotools show their client that that is the case? seven: Well, use your editor, open the code file, change the text in the (c) and save the fiule. Commit. seven: Whenn all files are committed you pass incubation. acuster: Wedogis is a small company bidding on a big european contract. How to they show that the code is legit? seven: :-) seven: They say that OSGeo say it does. acuster: the answer, up until today, has always been: let's make a series of letters documenting the intent of all the developers seven: That is why we are a founfation seven: Foundation. acuster: which is what we have been working on for a year and half seven: Cool. acuster: it is also the original intent of the first documents OSGeo put out seven: I am very proud of you. seven: This is really good. acuster: does OSGeo not find that a reasonable solution? seven: I am sorry that we have caused so much trouble. jgarnett: So for the next release we could ask module maintainers; to: jgarnett: a) check their headers seven: Yes, sure. We do it taht way. jgarnett: b) update their headers to (c) OSGeo acuster: Formal letters are par for the course in most other foundations acuster: FSF, etc. seven: Good for most other foundations. Do we need it? acuster: yes, I think we do seven: OK. seven: Then we do it. jgarnett: I think that is up to the board to decide acuster: because being lazy now is easy. but getting sued is easy too jgarnett: (ie I do not want to tell the board what to do on this one) acuster: and I expect to be sued jgarnett: well we got one take down notice before based on a patent acuster: because we are tackling a 2billion dollar buisness jgarnett: (some magnifying glass thing) seven: Cool. This is becoming interesting now. jgarnett: we removed it. acuster: so having a squeaky clean legal trail has real advantages seven: Hmmm. jgarnett: We also removed all previous geoserver downloads; because they included an ESRI jar acuster: this was, two years ago, the main argument for joining osgeo jgarnett: so we do take this stuff seriously seven: Do you remeber the Keynote by Damian? jgarnett: I missed it CameronShorter: acuster, I think we can avoid Contributor Lisence Agreement (CLA) if you so desire. jgarnett: and acuster was not there. jgarnett: is there a video of it online? acuster: CameronShorter, no I don't desire. I have been working for over a year writing a Copyright Assignment document CameronShorter: ok acuster: CameronShorter, because I think it's really, really important acuster: I am amazed to hear the Board is so blasé about this seven: jgarnett: no but i will comment it in the Wiki some day. seven: blase? acuster: carefree seven: Hehe, I just checked. See how ignorant I am of many things. ***seven is amazed at the complexity of human behaviour. seven: I need to go now. acuster: jgarnett, couldn't we assign (c) to FSF eu instead? seven: Can we create a PSC mailing list and continue there? jgarnett: interesting discussion; thanks to both of you jgarnett: do we want to punt this conversation onto the wiki for later? CameronShorter: I need to go, I'll be reading custer's issues/work off plan with interest and will provide feedback. I think the work off plan with actions assigned to people will help fix this. jgarnett: we tend to use geotools-devel seven: Yes please. jgarnett: because our PMC is really just a front for the module maintainers seven: geotools.devel is too crowded for this. jgarnett: (ie PMC is just volunteers; module maintainers do the work and have the responsibility) jgarnett: hrm seven: You should consider having a PSC seven: just four people you trust seven: or five ***acuster is just totally confused jgarnett: that is what the PMC is seven: acuster: I am sorry. seven: OK. seven: Gotcha. seven: :-) jgarnett: ie 5 people who have volunteered so much they are recognized as such seven: cOOL. seven: Do you have a mailing list? jgarnett: no ***seven is insitent. jgarnett: but I can create one seven: Good. jgarnett: sigh seven: You can also ask Tyler to make one. acuster: don't go and create some random mail list for three emails seven: Will be good for formal and legal talk jgarnett: seven has a point seven: when we can point people to an OSGeo lmailing list jgarnett: we often lose PMC communication in the raw development stream that is geotools-devel acuster: as you wish CameronShorter: +1 for a PSC email list. seven: I promise that I will tent to things in a weekly manner if I don't have ot filter out 95% developer noise. :-) jgarnett: what we can do is make the list public; since we are keen on open development jgarnett: I will ask the geotools-devel list first seven: Cool. ***seven wonders whether she has actually been of any help. If not just tell me. acuster: if you are accurately representing the board, it's very helpful acuster: distressing but helpful jgarnett: guys I need to get back to the bump and grind of development fun seven: acuster: I will make sure that I communicate with the board sufficiently to accurately represent it in this discussion. jgarnett: acuter I will be on #udig to chat seven: Have fun. Thank you. jgarnett: (if you have any awake left for uDig) jgarnett: I will package up this chat for the geotools wiki ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ _______________________________________________ Geotools-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geotools-devel
