Re: [Geowanking] Access to public geodata in California - AG Opinion Citation

Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:39:10 -0800 

Brian Denzer wrote:
"A lot of time counties will use outside contractors for GIS data specifically to be able to recover the costs of generating it" 


Or I wonder if it isn't possible that the use of outside contractors 
merely increases the nominal price of creating GIS data, not the actual 
cost.



In a technology era, shouldn't access to GIS data be seen as a public 
good, rather than as a commodity to which only those who can pay have 
access.



It would certainly be an impediment to the long-term economic vitality 
of a county if all the streets were toll roads, and if you had to pay 
before you could get firefighters to answer a call, after the taxpayers 
had already paid for all of the up-front costs to pave the streets, 
build the firestations, and install fire hydrants and water mains.





You're right on all counts of course!  GIS data _is_ a public good and 
should be available.  I think it increases the overall value of the data 
to spread it around too.



But county governments are basically businesses just like commercial 
enterprises; but they just have very few ways to generate revenue, and a 
lot of mandated expenses.  So it can be a tremendous political challenge 
to defend the costs of GIS data production and maintenance.



What's most interesting looking back is that I never found the 
geowanking-community working in gvt GIS.  When google maps came along, I 
pretty much had to turn my back on what I saw as a _very_ expensive, and 
heavyweight approach to GIS, backed by a de facto ESRI+Microsoft tag 
team.  So we all rely on the data generated by counties, but there's 
still no good way to fund it, and the cost of production is propped up 
by the IT infrastructure and time-consuming labor required for that kind 
of operation.



Do we have any civil service folks on this list at all I wonder?  It 
felt at the county that the ESRI user conference was the only place all 
the gvt types mingled.


Charles


I might be thinking out loud, or I might just be sick of expensive, 
low-quality work done by contractors.


BD



On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Charles Greer <[email protected] 
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:


    A lot of time counties will use outside contractors for GIS data
    specifically to be able to recover the costs of generating it,
    thereby bypassing the Public Records Act.  It's a nasty practice,
    but there's a huge standing problem..  Counties have the mandate to
    generate and maintain very expensive datasets with no recourse to
    fund it besides trying to pass costs onto other agencies.

    Using contractors has been a loophole to keep GIS running in other
    words.  As I recall (been out of gvt for several years now) San
    Mateo and LA both use that strategy.  Where I worked, Sonoma county,
    you can download a bunch of the datasets for free.  A clearing house
    would be marvelous.


    Charles





    Landon Blake wrote:



        I should have cited the AG opinion in my previous message:


         
        NO: 04-1105


        Attorney General Bill Lockyer

        Deputy Attorney General Daniel Stone


         
        ** Landon **


        Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268

        Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658


         
         
        * From: * [email protected]

        <mailto:[email protected]>
        [mailto:[email protected]
        <mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of
        *Landon Blake
        *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:11 AM
        *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
        *Subject:* [Geowanking] Access to public geodata in California .


         
        I’m thinking about writing a letter to my County’s GIS

        department, which releases data under a very restrictive license
        agreement. The license agreement restriction that I the biggest
        problem with is:


         
        “GIS Product is not to be used for any purpose other than that

        indicated on the application. The

        applicant shall not disclose, lease, sell, distribute, make,
        transfer, or assign the GIS product or

        engage in any other transaction which has the effect of
        transferring the right to use for all or part of

        the GIS Product without prior written consent of the County of
        San Joaquin Community

        Development Department.”


         
        This effectively kills my ability to distribute “public data”,

        and it may kill my ability to distribute other data sets build
        from this public data.


         
        The County GIS Department has a link to the Attorney General’s

        opinion that concludes County’s must make their parcel GIS data
        available. (The County posted it on the website as a
        justification for the fees which they charge for the data. I
        don’t have a problem with these fees, although I think there a
        little pricey.)


         
        The Attorney General opinion mentions the California Public

        Records Act several times, and concludes that parcel data
        maintained by the County is subject to the provisions of the
        act. The opinion does not appear to discuss license agreements
        specifically. I’m wondering if any of you are aware of a
        provision in the California Public Records Act that deals with
        license agreements for public data subject to the act. Can my
        County be forced to release data under the act, but then place
        all sorts of restrictions on the use of that data with a license
        agreement?


         
        It would be good to cite a law or recent court case explaining

        that the license agreement or the restrictive provisions of it
        are not allowed under California law. I’m sure that my letter
        will head directly from the GIS department to my County’s legal
        department.


         
        Thanks for any help or suggestions.



         
        ** Landon Blake **


        Project Surveyor

        California PLS 8489

        Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268

        Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658

        [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
        <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>


        711 North Pershing Avenue

        Stockton , California , 95203


         



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