Michael’s arguments are compelling. Manuel
> Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-devs <ghc-devs@haskell.org>: > > Interesting article. Michael suggests using markdown in repo-controlled > files rather than a wiki. I can see the force of that. Maybe we should > consider it. > > Simon > <> > From: Alan & Kim Zimmerman [mailto:alan.z...@gmail.com] > Sent: 27 September 2016 15:54 > To: Simon Peyton Jones <simo...@microsoft.com> > Cc: Sven Panne <svenpa...@gmail.com>; ghc-devs <ghc-devs@haskell.org> > Subject: Re: How, precisely, can we improve? > > I think this is relevant to the dicussion: > http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2015/08/thoughts-on-documentation > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yesodweb.com%2Fblog%2F2015%2F08%2Fthoughts-on-documentation&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C7ff5e6e47ba5499a774308d3e6e631c2%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=uXvFVL2YlOPej5%2Brxms7oUL91OD%2FpqDD9VLaOYtL%2FjQ%3D&reserved=0> > Alan > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Simon Peyton Jones via ghc-devs > <ghc-devs@haskell.org <mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org>> wrote: > We currently have *3* wikis: > > https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.haskell.org%2FHaskell&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=fxYacdt9XklXJaGetQABBI%2BG3IgnlJmB2r1EL54I1HU%3D&reserved=0> > https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc <https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc> > https://phabricator.haskell.org/w/ > <https://phabricator.haskell.org/w/> > > I didn’t even know about the third of these, but the first two have clearly > differentiated goals: > · https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.haskell.org%2FHaskell&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=fxYacdt9XklXJaGetQABBI%2BG3IgnlJmB2r1EL54I1HU%3D&reserved=0> > is about user-facing, and often user-generated, documentation. Guidance > about improving performance, programming idioms, tutorials etc. > > · https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc <https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc> > is about GHC’s implementation, oriented to people who want to understand how > GHC works, and how to modify it. > > > I think this separation is actually quite helpful. > > I agree with what you and others say about the difficulty of keeping wikis > organised. But that’s not primarily a technology issue: there is a genuinely > difficult challenge here. How do you build and maintain up-to-date, > navigable, well-organised information about a large, complex, and rapidly > changing artefact like GHC? A wiki is one approach that has the merit that > anyone can improve it; control is not centralised. But I’d love there to be > other, better solutions. > > Simon > <> > From: ghc-devs [mailto:ghc-devs-boun...@haskell.org > <mailto:ghc-devs-boun...@haskell.org>] On Behalf Of Sven Panne > Sent: 27 September 2016 08:46 > To: ghc-devs <ghc-devs@haskell.org <mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org>> > Subject: Re: How, precisely, can we improve? > > Just a remark from my side: The documentation/tooling landscape is a bit more > fragmented than it needs to be IMHO. More concretely: > > * We currently have *3* wikis: > > https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.haskell.org%2FHaskell&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=fxYacdt9XklXJaGetQABBI%2BG3IgnlJmB2r1EL54I1HU%3D&reserved=0> > https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc <https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc> > https://phabricator.haskell.org/w/ > <https://phabricator.haskell.org/w/> > > > It's clear to me that they have different emphases and different > origins, but in the end this results in valuable information being scattered > around. Wikis in general are already quite hard to navigate (due to their > inherent chaotic "structure"), so having 3 of them makes things even worse. > It would be great to have *the* single Haskell Wiki directly on haskell.org > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell.org&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=%2F8JlCXTwn%2FB8EyrW4BkY0QTS57X%2BFvs4BSXijqCbiNA%3D&reserved=0> > in an easily reachable place. > > * To be an active Haskell community member, you need quite a few different > logins: Some for the Wikis mentioned above, one for Hackage, another one for > Phabricator, perhaps an SSH key here and there... Phabricator is a notable > exception: It accepts your GitHub/Google+/... logins. It would be great if > the other parts of the Haskell ecosystem accepted those kinds of logins, too. > > * https://haskell-lang.org/ > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhaskell-lang.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=9ndNQVeDQy7lPb4qmn13k%2BAtztK8F9Hq%2B2jeXKm9YFU%3D&reserved=0> > has great stuff on it, but its relationship to haskell.org > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell.org&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=%2F8JlCXTwn%2FB8EyrW4BkY0QTS57X%2BFvs4BSXijqCbiNA%3D&reserved=0> > is unclear to me. Their "documentation" sub-pages look extremely similar, > but haskell-lang.org > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell-lang.org&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=G9e%2BVDuPTtZHZl%2BGd2fFShUznQjDa158JENjoMiD0VY%3D&reserved=0> > has various (great!) tutorials and a nice overview of common libraries on > it. From an external POV it seems to me that haskell-lang.org > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell-lang.org&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=G9e%2BVDuPTtZHZl%2BGd2fFShUznQjDa158JENjoMiD0VY%3D&reserved=0> > should be seamlessly integrated into haskell.org > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell.org&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=%2F8JlCXTwn%2FB8EyrW4BkY0QTS57X%2BFvs4BSXijqCbiNA%3D&reserved=0>, > i.e. merged into it. Having an endless sea of links on haskell.org > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhaskell.org&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C28109c89abb14244f87908d3e6aa6198%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=%2F8JlCXTwn%2FB8EyrW4BkY0QTS57X%2BFvs4BSXijqCbiNA%3D&reserved=0> > is not the same as having content nicely integrated into it, sorted by > topic, etc. > > All those points are not show-stoppers for people trying to be more active in > the Haskell community, but nevertheless they make things harder than they > need to be, so I fear we lose people quite early. To draw an analogy: As > probably everybody who actively monitors their web shop/customer site knows, > even seemlingy small things moves customers totally away from your site. One > unclear payment form? The vast majority of your potential customers aborts > the purchase immediately and forever. One confusing interstitial web page? > Say goodbye to lots of people. One hard-to-find button/link? A forced > login/new account? => Commercial disaster, etc. etc. > > Furthermore, I'm quite aware of the technical/social difficulties of my > proposals, but that shouldn't let us stop trying to improve... > > Cheers, > S. > > _______________________________________________ > ghc-devs mailing list > ghc-devs@haskell.org <mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.haskell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fghc-devs&data=01%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7C7ff5e6e47ba5499a774308d3e6e631c2%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=6YMRMy74y45Vudt%2F2GvIEOj%2BautOYf7H4Uw%2BaDUMYbM%3D&reserved=0> > > _______________________________________________ > ghc-devs mailing list > ghc-devs@haskell.org > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs
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