> Well, the great piece of free software called "Netscape" doesn't allow me
> to cut & paste today, so I am going to have to retype a lot of stuff.

Huh? Netscape is "free software"? Do you have an idea what "free software"
is about?

Anyway. Even Netscape as non-free software has a reply-button, which would
include a quoted version of the mail *and* insert a correct "References"-
Header so that a correct threading could be done...

> > There is no way to resolve duplicates - and what does it help if the
> > shortcut-key is the third letter of the Word you want to select?  You
> > want to accelerate your work - and decyphering from some accidentally
> > underlined letter which is the current shortcut does not improve your
> > speed.
> First of all that's why care is (or should be) taken when determining
> which letters get underlined.  Second, there is no posible way you are
> going to run out of 26 letters of the english alphabet on the same
> menu.  Remember, these keys only work while you are on that particular
> menu.

Well - while this may be common/used for Languages with a non-latin
alphabet it is IMHO not a good solution to have *two* shordcut-
indicators like this:

New     (N)  Alt-N
Open    (O)  Alt-O
Save    (S)  Alt-S
Save-As (A)  Alt-Shift-S

While this is an example where the shortcuts can be assigned without having
to choose total unrelated letters from somewhere in the alphabet it shows,
that the menu-entries become nearly unreadable, because the user gets flooded
with information (IMHO).

> On most software packages (not for Linux, though), the
> "underline" action keys are generally organized well enough so that it's
> quicker to push that key instead of moving the mouse.  For laptop users
> this is true especially since most laptop mice don't have as much control
> as standard desktop mice.  If you ever tried to pick a menu item from a
> 1024x768, 10" laptop screen , using a kludgy input device like a
> touchpad or one of those pointing sticks, you would appreciate the ability
> to push a key instead of moving the mouse.

Dont argue with speed: Pressing Alt-F + x to exit a program is definitely
more complicated than pressing Ctrl-Q. This goes double for nested menus.

(As a sidenote: I dont think, referring to bad equipment does help us
much in this case. Everybody, who touches up photos on a 10" LC-Display
with a touchpad and expects a seamless workflow is nuts. You could also
expect Gimp to run smoothly without restrictions on a text-terminal...  :-)

> Again, seems like the
> dominating attitude around this area is "I *hate* alt-f-x style of
> navigating the menus, so it must not be implemented".  Hopefully these
> examples describe this issue better than the original post.

I said, that I wont be unhappy, if this remains unimplemented. *I*
am not the one, who claims that something *must* or *must not* be

> I believe you are missing the point.  Nobody is complaining about general
> shortcut keys.  Things like Ctrl+L are never going away.  This has nothing
> to do with the issue I am talking about, which is putting accelerator keys
> on menu items to allow faster navigation once the menu is already open.

You are talking about using Alt-F to open the File-Menu. Since you have
to invoke the <Image>->File Menu to be able to save images the general
shortcut "Alt-F" would be lost for normal operations. (like repeating
the last plugin).

[Translation issues]
> "File (F)" "Exit (x)" "Image (I)" etc.  The ja.po file for gimp already
> does this kind of things with the "File", "Xtns", and "Help" menu, and
> others.  This is not the most "pretty" way of doing it, but there is no
> issue of having to "relearn" key combinations to get around menus.

See above, why I dont like this notation. The underlining is quite unintrusive
but relies on having the letter in the word...

> > it is blocking a huge amount of "regular" shortcuts.  I *want* to use
> > alt-f/e/s/v/i/l/t/d/r (note that the filters entry would probably end up
> > with an "R" as a shortcut because all other letters are already
> > occupied...)/G/V/C for something other than invoking menus.
> Sigh.  Once again, you are missing the issue and exaggerating the
> problem.  The way Gimp's "image" menu was designed, there is no possible
> way to do the "Alt-blah" thing to open it.  Now if all that menu was on
> top of the drawing area (like a normal menu type thing), then yes, one
> would expect to operate that menu by doing Alt-F or Alt-I etc to open
> it.  But since the main menu is hidden until you right click, then it will
> take that right click to open it.  It is AFTER the fact that its open that
> these shortcut keys come to use.

In your original post you constantly complain, that "Alt-F" does not work.
Extrapolating from that it is clear that the above mentioned Shortcuts should
work the same way for a consistand user interface.
The Idea for a special keypress to open the image menu was not mentioned
in your original post.
Navigating inside an open menu is a different issue. And yes, some shortcuts
may be good, but I dont see a good way to get sensible defaults or making
this structure visible to the user.

> You say:
> > A shortcut to open the <image>-menu would be good, further menupoints
> > could be reached with the cursor-keys
> Now wouldn't it be so nice if you could right click, and hit "I" key to
> get to the Image menu instead of pressing the "down" key 4 times?  Or
> following the same example, right click, "i", "s" to get to the scale
> dialog?  Say you don't know that it already has a shortcut, or just
> learning the interface?  Or maybe it's painful for you to press the key
> combination for the "Pencil" tool (shift-p), so instead it would be
> easier to right click, "t", "p", "p" or something to that effect.

So you tell me that you would like to grab for the mouse to right click
for the menu and then reach for the Keyboard to navigate through the
menus and think that this is more optimal than a direct shortcut on the

> Most of you are probably thinking by now I am either crazy or nuts or an
> asshole, or all of the above, but these really are valid issues.

At the moment it is just you who demands this type of navigation. In five
years of Gimps history nobody else missed this feature (or asked for
this on this list). So - why do you think this is a "valid issue"?

> I imagine most of you *hate* the Win95 key that you get for free on most
> keyboards (all of them now, actually) - but why not put it to good
> use?  Why not make it open the gimp's right click menu?

Because Gimp already uses too much modifiers, and the "Windows"-Key is
IMHO the perfect key to control the Windowmanager.

> > So I guess this remains unimplemented - and I am not unhappy about this
> Not to pick on the particular person who posted that message, but he might
> have no problems in life.  He's got both arms, hands, and has no problem
> doing fine motor operations like selecting a menu.  Not everyone is so
> gifted.

Luckily I am in the situation that I can use a computer without problems.
Does this make my points invalid?

Of course we should aim to make gimp as easy to use as possible, but I dont
think that your proposal is easier than a good ".menurc". I think esp.
it is easier to use the cursor keys to navigate through menus than finding
the keys "t", "p", "p" from your example above. We cannot optimize Gimp
for every handicap - and there *are* thinks like sticky modifier keys.

      [EMAIL PROTECTED]       http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/

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