Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.

You ended your reply with "you were a dick", I said that I have 3 more.
It's 4 or us so far, then.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:29 PM C R <caj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else
> that's the problem.
>
> If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror.
> lol
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me
>> are dicks, too.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <caj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
>>>> therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
>>>> was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
>>>> better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
>>>>
>>>
>>> You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
>>> wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
>>> wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
>>> like way upset. :)
>>>
>>>
>>>> The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it
>>> hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back
>>> later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But
>>> whatever.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks
>>>> employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
>>> the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
>>> their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
>>> users asked for was done).
>>>
>>> Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
>>> in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
>>> software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
>>> will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
>>> GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
>>> active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
>>> and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
>>> that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
>>> control your own temper in these threads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
>>> to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he
>>>> implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of
>>>> GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and
>>>> not worth explaining things.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
>>> snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
>>>> attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
>>>> it".
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and
>>> not on this mailing list.
>>>
>>> If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
>>> just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <caj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
>>>>> thread:
>>>>>
>>>>> "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was
>>>>> just justifying me complaining.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code
>>>>> that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
>>>>> become a GIMP dev?
>>>>> Jesus..."
>>>>>
>>>>> What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all
>>>>> sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect
>>>>> everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an outsider's perspective.
>>>>> -C
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
>>>>> gimp-developer-list <gimp-developer-l...@gnome.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkol...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
>>>>>> know if
>>>>>> > people can read it.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
>>>>>> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
>>>>>> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you
>>>>>> keep
>>>>>> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
>>>>>> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately
>>>>>> -- you
>>>>>> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they
>>>>>> call me
>>>>>> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important
>>>>>> that they
>>>>>> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your
>>>>>> behavior is
>>>>>> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If
>>>>>> it's not,
>>>>>> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be
>>>>>> as much
>>>>>> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> > you.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
>>>>>> for,
>>>>>> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid
>>>>>> repetitive
>>>>>> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good day to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>>>> > alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkol...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
>>>>>> >>> misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> >>> doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with
>>>>>> you. I
>>>>>> >>> guess it's you against the world.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and
>>>>>> --in
>>>>>> >>> case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
>>>>>> reply--if they
>>>>>> >>> approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure
>>>>>> your behavior
>>>>>> >>> is OK?).
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the
>>>>>> mailing lists
>>>>>> >> you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> >> emails sent to those list.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me
>>>>>> don't as
>>>>>> >>> much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only
>>>>>> two other
>>>>>> >> problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
>>>>>> pinpoint
>>>>>> >> the relevant threads.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Exhibit A:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
>>>>>> guy
>>>>>> >> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
>>>>>> wanted to
>>>>>> >> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> >> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to
>>>>>> use in
>>>>>> >> GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to
>>>>>> say that
>>>>>> >> lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
>>>>>> "mindset
>>>>>> >> of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
>>>>>> I said
>>>>>> >> in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
>>>>>> "Facts...
>>>>>> >> Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> ropes.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> And Exhibit B:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
>>>>>> thread
>>>>>> >> entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
>>>>>> >> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>>>> something.
>>>>>> >> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> This is this very thread:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
>>>>>> shocking 3
>>>>>> >> minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords,
>>>>>> mansplaining, and
>>>>>> >> patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person
>>>>>> characterized the
>>>>>> >> official 2.10.8 announcement.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> very same thread --
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
>>>>>> >> -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
>>>>>> between
>>>>>> >> versions.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
>>>>>> tagging a
>>>>>> >> release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for
>>>>>> the next
>>>>>> >> version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
>>>>>> attack,
>>>>>>
>>>>> >> save for our friend /u/Unchayned <
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> >> here."
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> >> interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven
>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Alex
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility
>>>>>> for your
>>>>>> >>> actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for
>>>>>> yourself only,
>>>>>> >>> but for other people as well.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
>>>>>> >>> alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> Hi Niccolo,
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> >>>> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
>>>>>> something they
>>>>>> >>>> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> >>>> drawing conclusions.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
>>>>>> releases
>>>>>> >>>> we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I
>>>>>> should have
>>>>>> >>>> kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
>>>>>> verbal
>>>>>> >>>> abuse containing expletives.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Alexandre
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkol...@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Hello.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> TLDR:
>>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying
>>>>>> that he's
>>>>>> >>>>> a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and
>>>>>> doing things
>>>>>> >>>>> that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)
>>>>>> role, which
>>>>>> >>>>> makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> FULL:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> >>>>> had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
>>>>>> exchange is
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
>>>>>> >>>>> from the Reddit thread at
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
>>>>>> >>>>> While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty.
>>>>>> What triggered
>>>>>> >>>>> Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better
>>>>>> than random
>>>>>> >>>>> ones, because people like IT administrators might have to
>>>>>> upgrade hundreds
>>>>>> >>>>> of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> >>>>> understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
>>>>>> refactor
>>>>>> >>>>> GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
>>>>>> Regardless,
>>>>>> >>>>> instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
>>>>>> because, bla
>>>>>> >>>>> bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically
>>>>>> saying that I had
>>>>>> >>>>> no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but
>>>>>> neither is he
>>>>>> >>>>> more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:
>>>>>> just because
>>>>>> >>>>> of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
>>>>>> which is
>>>>>> >>>>> what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
>>>>>> with people
>>>>>> >>>>> that have unapproved opinions.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
>>>>>> >>>>> perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and
>>>>>> to be honest
>>>>>> >>>>> sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
>>>>>> didn't say
>>>>>> >>>>> nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> >>>>> beast.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
>>>>>> started
>>>>>> >>>>> getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
>>>>>> attacked around
>>>>>> >>>>> Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> >>> A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that
>>>>>> alexlg guy
>>>>>> >>>>> came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it.
>>>>>> Just wanted to
>>>>>> >>>>> tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the
>>>>>> exact same
>>>>>> >>>>> ground with him just a few days earlier.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Another message:
>>>>>> >>>>> >>> [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in
>>>>>> another
>>>>>> >>>>> thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
>>>>>> people had
>>>>>> >>>>> dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
>>>>>> something.
>>>>>> >>>>> Even if you win, you lose...
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> >>>>> "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about
>>>>>> it", or using
>>>>>> >>>>> "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> >>>>> important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow
>>>>>> users, because
>>>>>> >>>>> what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create
>>>>>> awesome free
>>>>>> >>>>> stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when
>>>>>> I found out
>>>>>> >>>>> that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in
>>>>>> non-technical ways.
>>>>>> >>>>> This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
>>>>>> developer but
>>>>>> >>>>> not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while
>>>>>> pretending to be a
>>>>>> >>>>> developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> >>>>> communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only
>>>>>> he's
>>>>>> >>>>> doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the
>>>>>> project. It's easy
>>>>>> >>>>> to relate to people that agree with you, they're already
>>>>>> passionate GIMP
>>>>>> >>>>> users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to
>>>>>> really talk to,
>>>>>> >>>>> because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an
>>>>>> awesome project
>>>>>> >>>>> you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn
>>>>>> a critic
>>>>>> >>>>> into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
>>>>>> pretending
>>>>>> >>>>> to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for
>>>>>> the dev team,
>>>>>> >>>>> since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
>>>>>> assholes.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop
>>>>>> Alexandre
>>>>>> >>>>> from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me
>>>>>> since I would
>>>>>> >>>>> assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just
>>>>>> maybe) you guys
>>>>>> >>>>> are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> >>>>> behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
>>>>>> >>>>> attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
>>>>>> someone who
>>>>>> >>>>> either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>>> >>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>>> >>> Niccolo.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> > Niccolo.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gimp-developer-list mailing list
>>>>>> List address:    gimp-developer-l...@gnome.org
>>>>>> List membership:
>>>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
>>>>>> List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> Niccolo.
>>>>
>>> --
>> Niccolo.
>>
> --
Niccolo.
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