In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST
Greg Kettmann said:
>Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / use curve of
>Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high.
Yes, that's absolutely true. But look at the reason why! What were
they each designed to do?
Windows designed from the outset to be a SINGLE user system
primarily for office suite use. Every other use of
Windows is a side benefit or add-on usage.
UNIX designed from the outset to be a multi-tasking,
multi-user SERVER that can do ANYTHING.
By nature you ought to expect UNIX and by extension, Linux, to be
more complicated. UNIX was never meant to be a desktop OS, it was
designed in the days before anyone could ever conceive of such a
thing!
>They often lack real world examples as well.
Keep in mind, 'man' stands for 'manual', which is short for
"Reference Manual"!!!! Show me any reference manual which contains a
variety of real world examples. Does Gray's Anatomy have a "real
world example" of how to remove a kidney? No, it's a reference,
that's it, plain and simple. You want real world examples, you get a
HOWTO book with pictures and explanations.
> This can be very imposing to the new user.
They're not meant for the new user, they're meant for someone who
knows what they're doing, but needs a quick reference.
>The response "well they obviously didn't read the man man" is just plain
>stupid and completely misses the point
Why? The point was if they had read the man man page it clearly
explains HOW to read man pages. Had they done this, they would
clearly have understood that all the options to tar that were
confusing them were in fact *all* the OPTIONS to tar. Their problem
directly stemmed from the fact that they didn't know HOW to read a
man page, and if they had read the man man page they would now know
how!
Once you know HOW to read the man pages, they suddenly become your
best friend, and you suddenly realize you don't need to ask a lot of
questions, because ultimately, the answers are right there waiting
for you. Until you learn how to read them though, you're doomed to a
life of confusion and frustration.
>the how-to's in the LDP". The point is the average newbie doesn't have a
>clue about these things. That's the definition of a newbie.
And that's why this list exists. Newbies come to us, and we help
explain. Sure, a lot of times we'll get questions and we'll answer
with "read the man page". A lot of people take exception to that
answer, but IMO, there's nothing wrong with it. If you're not
willing to learn, then why are you here and why are you trying to use
Linux? Most of the time reading the man page will solve your problem.
And you know, the funny thing is, I've never seen someone go away,
read the man page, come back, say, "Okay, RTFM'ed and still don't get
it!" and not end up getting helped. Never! That's the learning
experience in action. Prove you're willing to try and we'll kill
ourselves trying to help you.
I can't count the number of times I've seen people submit scripts for
some one that I know weren't whipped up in 20 seconds. Many of us
have spent hours and hours of either our own time or even our
employers time trying to help newbies. But we won't lift a finger if
the person doesn't prove themselves worthy of that time and effort.
We "experts" didn't get to be experts because it was easy, we got to
be experts because we persevered. If a "newbie" wants to become an
expert, they will have to persevere as well.
>Now, conversely I'm not suggesting that these newbies become instant
>sysadmins. Absolutely there is a place, and a need, for people and
>documentation for those well versed in Linux. So, I understand where those
>with a great deal of experience are coming from. However, I've got twenty
>books here.
See that's the problem. You have 20 books. Why do you have 20
books? What are they all on? What do you need to know that requires
20 books? You know how many books I have on Linux System
administration? 1. That's it. 1 small, concise book.
I have lots of other books, but none of them are critical to the
administration of the system. I have books on apache, probably 8 or
so on perl, a few on C, 3 on Samba, and who knows what else. You
know how many I ever look at on even a monthly basis? None of them.
Every now and then I'll pull one down if I have a question on a
specific subject matter, but for sysadmin stuff, I have 1. And
that's all you need too.
>I'm only a casual user of Linux and I don't use it day in and
>day out but I use it as often as I can.
Maybe you should use it more? Way back when someone told me I needed
to use Emacs. I tried to use Emacs but couldn't figure it out. I
would use 'vi' for almost everything, and when I had a spare moment,
I'd try to use Emacs. I never learned anything about Emacs that way.
I finally realized if I was ever going to learn it, I had to use it
ALL the time. I actually aliased the 'vi' command to point at Emacs
and launch that whenever I needed to edit something.
Only by immersing myself in Emacs did I ever learn it well enough to
use it. That's also how most of us "experts" became so. We've
immersed ourselves in Linux to the point that that's all we use, and
therefore, force ourselves to learn everything there is about it.
I'm not saying you have to do the same, but it might be worth a try.
Force yourself to use nothing other than Linux at home for a solid
week. Maybe once you're comfortable enough with it, you'll be brave
enough to move your work desktop over to Linux too.
>It can be very, very difficult to remember exact commands and syntax
That's exactly what the man pages are for.
>and most of the time the man pages do little to clear things up.
How do the man pages fail to clear up a syntax question?
>They do an excellent job of giving me the full breadth of a command but
>are far weaker for telling me how to make something work.
Again, the man pages are not meant to explain how or when to use the
command, they are meant as a reference, primarily for syntax and
options.
>The books do a far better job but it's awkward and difficult to
>always have the books around.
Why? Get one really good sysadmin book and just bring it with you
wherever you use Linux. I always pack a book when travelling, I
always have books at the office, and at home. Where else can you be
where you need a book and it would be awkward to have have one with
you?
>Also, although man pages are in the same general format some are pretty good.
> Some are... ummm, not as good :-)
No argument there, but by and large, they better than I've seen on
other OSes (anyone else remember the Solaris 2.1 man pages which
persited through 2.5! :)
>It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
>making the system easier to use. Note that I didn't say less complex. Just
>some way to lower the entry bar.
Oh come one, Linux is far more easier to use today that even 2 years
ago. If you want difficult to use, jump back 10 years to SunOS or
Ultrix, set one of those systems up for dial-in access. And when was
the last time you need to set up a UUCP connection to get your e-mail?
No, what you really mean is that it's amazed you that Linux is not
yet, nor will it ever be as easy to use as Windows *appears* to be.
>Many people, such as myself, learn by getting their hands dirty.
Great, that's the best way learn. So, go get real dirty and you'll
learn a whole lot!
>If I screw it up too badly I just reinstall.
>Despite a great deal of reading I've found very little in the way of good
>beginners guides (I've read quite a few weak or poor beginners guides) and
>certainly nothing built into the system.
Okay, let's compare 2 different fields of study. Computer Science
and, oh, Brain Surgery. I haven't seen too many Intro to Brain
Surgery books on the market lately. Why is it that there need to be
beginners books? Look, computers are a complex topic, they ARE NOT
SIMPLE! End of story! Why do we need to pretend that they are.
Let's call a spade a spade and admit that it's hard. If you want to
learn the stuff, you'll have patience and perseverence and eventually
you'll get it. But don't fool yourself in to thinking that if you
complain and whine enough about there needing to be more beginner
books that this stuff is going to get any easier. It's not. We can
only go so far to make the desktop interface a little better and
easier to use. But come on, this stuff is complicated and difficult.
If you don't have what it takes, or don't want to have what it takes,
then move on to something else. The idea that computer science is
easy is a myth!
>So, any newbies out there just keep reading and learning. This list gets
>fairly interesting sometimes but I don't think I've ever seen a question go
>by without someone answering it, no matter how difficult or simple. In fact
>I've seen some pretty amazing problems and concepts batted around here.
>Some of the people on this list are really, really good.
We try our best, and we will continue to do the best we can to help
whomever needs it. But you as the neophyte need to do your part as
well and be willing to learn and willing to fight to understand this
stuff. It isn't easy, but it is possible!
--
Seeya,
Paul
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