Thanks, just to say I really appreciate this input! On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 11:29 AM Rynhardt Kruger via gnome-accessibility-list <gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org> wrote:
> I definitely think image recognition has improved a lot, both in speed > and accuracy. However, even a difference like 50 milliseconds may be > noticeable by an experienced screen reader user, especially if one > uses speech at 400 words per minute or more. This is one of the > reasons why many blind users (including myself) still prefer the > text-mode console over a graphical terminal for command line work. The > graphical terminal is certainly very usable and works well for some > scenarios,, but there is quite a noticeable difference in performance > when using the text-mode console. > > Regards, > > Rynhardt > > On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 9:48 AM Matan Safriel <dev.ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Of course, the approach whereby the application developers interleave > semantics about the content beyond the particular way it is laid out in 2D, > as you mention, is very sensible and robust as long as GUI toolkits and > development processes enable it as a default piece of development, and > application developers and designers put that extra semantic information > in, such as pointing out that a grid actually bears plain list semantics > and no special significance to it being a grid in a particular case. > > > > Do bear in mind that the potential for robust text reading from images > has significantly improved since the time that the current accessibility > paradigm took over, so I am not sure I see a reason it would be "always > slower" and things like that ― these affirmations are probably not true > today ― if one embarked on a machine learning project on this. > > > > On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 9:52 AM Rynhardt Kruger via > gnome-accessibility-list <gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org> wrote: > >> > >> I agree with you, it would be a useful fallback. It would never be a > primary solution though, it is essentially screen-scraping, and would have > the same disadvantages as screen-scraping approaches that were used before > accessibility API: > >> > >> > >> * Accessibility APIs make it the app developer's responsibility to > implement propper accessibility, this is by design. App developers know not > just their app, but also the content associated with it, and therefore can > implement an accessible experience that may be different from the visual > layout and yet more efficient for AT users. An example is the list of > recommendations on Youtube. Visually they are in a grid, but the screen > reader sees it as a list of headings. > >> * One of the most important requirements for a screen reader is > responsiveness. The quicker a blind user knows about an update in the > interface, the better. Even a slight delay before an announcement may > result in an interface that feels sluggish. This is why blind users often > use speech at a very fast speaking rate. A pattern-based approach will > always be slower than just reading the state via the accessibility API. > >> * It is dependent on the visual layout, which means accessibility may > break just because an app got new icons, or a few components shifted > position. These things are independent from the accessibility API. > >> > >> > >> Still, it may be a useful approach to consider for special edge cases, > and I am interested to see what happens in this space. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> > >> Rynhardt > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 28 May 2021, 20:10 Matan Safriel via gnome-accessibility-list, < > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Shadyar, > >>> > >>> Not an immediate solution at all, but I would say that AI (Machine > Learning) which snapshots the screen or window and is able to extract the > text from the snapshot image to then read it aloud, might be superior to > legacy accessibility API paradigms which rely on the application developers > to interleave "accessibility" (ARIA etc.) information in each and every > field. > >>> > >>> Or at least as an augmentation that should be able to provide a really > great fallback to any ARIA-like paradigm. > >>> > >>> It would be a project, sure, but it is really very accomplishable at > this time and age. > >>> > >>> Hopefully one day our desktops will be more fluid than only providing > voice services on top a graphical interaction interface, but a lot can be > done till then by leveraging Computer Vision AI in this space. Sorry again > that this is not any immediate solution. > >>> > >>> Matan > >>> > >>> On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 4:04 AM Shadyar Khodayari via > gnome-accessibility-list <gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hello > >>>> I'm a blind computer engineer, a developer and familiar with OS > >>>> Windows and Screen reader NVDA entirely. > >>>> I recently installed Linux Ubuntu v20.4 using Orca. > >>>> I read Accessibility section of Ubuntu documentation as well as Orca > >>>> documentation. > >>>> After logging in, > >>>> 1. When I am at Desktop through either pressing Super key + D or > >>>> holding Alt + CTRL and pressing Tab, next pressing arrow keys or Tab, > >>>> Orca does not read desktop icons. > >>>> 2. 3. When I open a windows Settings, I press Tab numerous times but > >>>> Orca does not read the Setting categories like wireless, Bluetooth ETC > >>>> in the window. It seems focus never moves on this part of the window. > >>>> 3. When I open a windows like application files or file trash, I press > >>>> Tab numerous times but Orca does not read the main part of the window. > >>>> It seems focus never moves on this part of the window. > >>>> 4. Should I do a specific config on Gnome? > >>>> 5. should I install another desktop environment? > >>>> I will be appreciate if you would help me. > >>>> Thanks and Regards > >>>> Shadyar KHodayari > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >
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