On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 01:49:20PM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Jean Louis wrote: > > > When software is distributed to a mechanic, telling him indirectly, > > that he is dumb, and he shall use click/pray to search Google and > > watch videos, and nothing more, this is leading him nowhere. > > just wanted to say I am completely with you on the position of not > treating users as dumb. there was a lecture here in Goteborg at FSCONS > by Elinor Carmi which I really enjoyed and, while mostly focusing on > the human-machine interaction of "user operators". She started from > stories about the early Bell telephone network days, to nowadays > content management on social media. While tangential to her speech, > she still articulated well a scenario touching this issue, of treating > users as dumb and how that is a very bad idea for everyone.
I beg you to provide me earliest that talk. After research I found what is she doing http://pinkeee.com and I also found about the conference. I guess you are the talker too! Congratulation. I like this kind of minds being brought together, for the future of societies. Thinkers are those who create. Remember, when you have some information on treating users as dumb, keeping them so, or viewpoints on teaching users to become creative, please send me. > in Devuan we are definitely witnessing this too. Many users fleeing > out from the systemd imposition in Debian are offended by the way they > are treated as stupid. I was a proponent of Debian GNU/Linux for long long time, until I found the issues or stand on free software. More over, I did not like thousands of distributors deciding for me, how my system should run. That is why I was looking into better designed solutions like Guix, where I could decide what the system would consist of. http://www.gnu.org/s/guix My personal problem with Guix is that I knew I will not have good connection in Africa, and I cannot afford constant downloading and upgrading new packages, it simply does not work. So I have followed the instructions on http://www.linuxfromscratch.org -- only that I cannot get shaped by the "Linux Filesystem Hierarchy" -- I like the Guix approach with /gnu hierarchy, basically free from constraints and having everything of software wavailable. The /gnu hierarchy from Guix is similar to the approach from slashpackage system by D. J. Bernstein http://cr.yp.to/slashpackag.html because when running with sources, it become much easier to manage packages. That approach I use with the GNU Stow http://www.gnu.org/software/stow and now everything becomes installable in different versions, only not as professional as the Guix approach, which I find one of best systems in the world. And now I am designing new system that is going to support GNU operating system, and that is going to promote programming languages and creativity. It is not based on GNU/Linux from Scratch, but it does draw the idea from there. It gives me most of the productivity, efficiency and customization that I need. While relaying for years on distributors, I cannot any more, unless o some servers. Systemd discussions I was reading and basically its complexity imposes limits. But if I remember well, Debian was possible to use with other init and supervision systems. Maybe now not any more by default. At the time of still using Debian, the conversion from old init system, to systemd was for me invisible, even I did have some problems in understanding the new system, just like any other new piece of software. Personally, I don't see problem with systemd, like for myself, it would be invisible. After some research, and my research was not good enough, I have seen that systemd is sponsored or supported by corporations. Please correct me if I am wrong. Even the XDG things, which I don't like, are somehow connected to Red Hat. The Linux Filesystem Standard which I am not going to follow is also somehow connected to large corporations shaping the future of computers to the way to make it easier for them. All those are limitations for me: XDG: why would I get all the directories I did not plan to get? Suddenly Desktop, Videos, Pictures, I did not ask system for that, and I got those with some software. How I see XDG is that it is just a tool for corporations like Red Hat, http://www.redhat.com which do not even mention free software on their first page, they have only "open source". And I guess systemd is also yet another "rule" imposed by those sponsored by large corporations. That is just my guessing. I am not using it, but not that I had any negative experience with it. I just like djb daemontools http://cr.yp.to/daemontools.html and I have fully implemented that on some Debian servers, and on my private computers I am running version of djb daemontools and its philosophy, the Skarnet supervision system, and s6 tools from http://skarnet.org So the systemd is not here, not SysV, I am using System 6 or S6. Computer is booting in most stable manner, quickly and without problems. Daemons are running stable and with the full control. I would not even consider installing or probing systemd, due to its complexities, uncomparable to the s6 init tools and supervision tools. In the end, I have my own truly free system, with little maintenance from time to time, that I can put on 32 GB memory stick or USB and copy on any new computer faster than I would ever install any of the offered GNU system distributions. And those GNU distributions I am suggesting to people are those on the link https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html and no others. To that line of system distributions PureOS would give large boost and could benefit the community. And there we are back, the PureOS developers do not review well the guidelines, and put more focus on system as such, to be free (once Firefox issues are solved), but what about the issue of "Teach users about Free Software" -- this one is missing. Providing only licenses is not enough to say we are teaching them. Or mentioning FLOSS is simply not enough. Free Software is not Open Source, and other terminology issues. And the link to http://www.gnu.org is missing there. It is not hard to follow the Free System Distribution Guidelines and make a checklist and make it happen. All the discussion brought me to realize that without teaching others, the distributions shall not be IMHO endorsed by the FSF. That would mean that everybody can just copy a distribution, put their own name, and ask for endorsement, even without teaching people about free software. Guidelines are well made, and in very friendly manner. They are there not to be followed like God's rules, it should be very natural for those who are at the free software side. And I would add to the guidelines some new rules, that each system distribution, shall provide means for users to create on their computers. Not just text editing, I mean at least being able to learn how to make some simple computations. Just everybody needs computations, every businessman, hair dresser, mechanic, accountants, attorneys, governments, they all need means to create their own software, even if small. So, yes I would make it more strict, so that programming languages are provided, and if only few programs, that there shall be clear teaching on how to extend or customize those programs programmatically, like by using the extension language Guile. "Teach users about free software" -- does it mean, somebody opens up ne website, tells them to download and not create. Everything is ready. Browser, editor for letters, music playing and videos. That would not be enough for me. Free software distributions shall be made in the spirit of GNU Emacs, so that each user can get at least an option to program, there shall be access to programming, programming languages, at least through the Emacs. If it is about music, there shall be music editing software, not just playing. If there are video players, there shall be teaching how to convert videos, cut them, create with them. If there is editor, it shall naturally include programming features. Browser should direct users to the creativity, and not only driving user to be yet another spectator, but creator. The opportunity to it should be given to everybody. > there where more speeches at FSCONS which have been recorded and > should come out soon online, I highly recommend watching them. What > was also remarkable is that most speakers were women, well engaged on > political topics that are definitely echoing the spirit of the Free > Software movement. I like Sweden, and would like to be there, but I am far away down to south just by the source of the river of Nile. When videos appears, send them, that I can watch or read. I am interested in subject of keeping users spectators in that manner (what we previously named "dumb") and giving them opportunity to create (what was totally natural before some 20 years). Jean Louis
