Jeff: should i just use this until the turn with the line through it becomes ------------- I wouldn't. I'll try to be clearer. A wavy line is not a turn. It is a mordent, mordente, inverted mordent, Pralltrill, open shake, double or triple grace note, or Schneller, depending on the time and whose book you read, but a more or less vertical line through it inverts it, whatever it is. Between Bach and Carcassi, 1750 to 1826, the thing was clearly somewhat chaotic. There isn't any confusion *that I know of* about what a turn, or gruppetto, is. Carcassi gives the backward S (like Z) lying on its side (like N), for a turn, and an inverted turn is the backward S standing upright (like Z). What's wrong with that? The engraver could use the same buren and not have to go back and do a line through it. I don't see the need for a turn with a line through it, and standing it upright to invert it makes it easier to see which is which. The fact that one might safely *assume* that a line inverts it is no reason to do it that way. Haydn lived so long that you could fill a book with speculations about what various signs meant at different times. You just have to make some decisions. :-) Carcassi is a great source for this stuff, because he was writing for a mass market of ordinary people, and others were not. His was arguably the most successful music book of all time, and these factors lend considerable authority to his treatment of notation, IMHO. (The Carl Fischer edition used a page of "Rudiments of Music" borrowed from a clarinet method. The old Theodore Presser Carcassi edition had more and better.) When I was coming up I didn't have any respect for Carcassi, because I compared him to Sor and Giuliani and sort of assumed that his music was merely imitative. When I very belatedly came to see that he was writing popular commercial music rather than classical or "good" music, and started using his dynamics and tempos rather than interpreting his music as if it were something else, I found that he has some really nice stuff, and probably a smaller percentage of losers than those more refined and better trained composers for guitar. For example, the Andantino non piu Mesta (a little faster than walking tempo and not too mournfully)(Op1, vIII, n.41) you can play at that tempo for almost any audience anywhere and they will like it. A music critic will not. Playing it faster or slower will not improve it. I haven't played it for money yet but I will Saturday. Again I thank all you programmers and notators for your herculean efforts. I am really disturbed by the fact that lilypond can't yet do adequately a piece as simple as the Milan pavan with three parts on one staff, but I have found that being an obnoxious lurker has given me the benefit of clarifying many notation issues, and thus made my own handwriting much better. I hope for much more. Bless you. Don't give up.
