David,
I never noticed that before. Thanks!
Regards,
Adrien
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 5:34 AM, David T. <sunfis...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Adrien,
>
> A small point: there is an option on the reconcile window to include
> subaccounts, so that should not pose a problem.
>
> David
>
>> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Adrien Monteleone
>> <adrien.montele...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The biggest problem with any of this is if the money is actually sitting in
>> a bank account. Reconciling is a mess. (I don’t think you can reconcile a
>> parent by considering the child accounts to ‘roll-up’)
>>
>> This works best with physical cash you hold in your hand.
>>
>> Technically, that cash is still a current asset because it’s liquid, but
>> that’s up to you if you want to segregate it out.
>>
>> I use the following:
>>
>> Current Assets:Cash:Wallet
>> Current Assets:Cash:Savings
>>
>> I’ve tried several sub accounts of Savings, but it was just too messy when I
>> had to move money around for other purposes than the savings were intended
>> for.
>>
>> One thing that might help is simplifying your splits.
>>
>> I used to use the Savings account only for transfers in and out. I would
>> then create separate transactions for the expenditures from Wallet with
>> money either going back to Savings, or to Wallet.
>>
>> But I found in many cases, I was really taking money out of Savings to spend
>> directly for a purpose, so I stopped doing most of the out transfers to
>> Wallet and just recorded the expense directly from the Savings account. (I
>> prefer to always record outflows from the account they are flowing out of -
>> easier to keep it straight) If there was any change or a left-over balance
>> (say I broke a C-note for something) and didn’t put that back into my
>> physical Savings location but in my wallet, then one of the splits would be
>> to Wallet. (I’m meticulous and also have a Current Assets:Change account so
>> it’s easy to ‘reconcile’ my physical cash in my wallet. This also lets me
>> see how much is in my change jar if I want to cash it in. Yes, I even track
>> quarters separately because I’m currently stuck with coin-laundry so I need
>> to know at a glance if I have enough.)
>>
>> Certainly, if you are allocating money from a checking account to savings
>> held at home, don’t use a sub-account of checking. Use a sub-account of
>> Cash, or create a same-level account like I did as Savings, or if you want
>> that separate still, as ‘Allocated' with sub-accounts there for specific
>> purposes. (I suppose even ‘Envelopes’ would work if you’re physically
>> stuffing them, it’s up to each individual how they think of it)
>>
>> I’m not sure where you’re going using the ‘Money Allocated’ account with
>> respect to balancing it with its sub-accounts.
>>
>> To me, the Money Allocated account (or whatever you call it) should likely
>> be a placeholder account and never have any transactions in it. Everything
>> happens in the subs.
>>
>> If you want to allocate funds, you’re taking them from some other regular
>> asset account like Checking or Cash. (or Savings if that’s a physical
>> account at a bank) That’s the credit side. The debit side is the allocated
>> sub-account.
>>
>> So something like this:
>>
>> Dr. Assets:Current Assets:Envelopes:Dining Out $100
>> Cr. Assets:Current Assets:Cash $100
>>
>> Cash is now less $100 and your Dining Out envelope has $100 in it.
>>
>> When you go out to eat, I would save a transaction and just spend the money
>> (which is physical cash) directly from the sub account.
>>
>> Dr. Expenses:Food:Dining Out $60
>> Cr. Assets:Current Assets:Envelopes:Dining Out $60
>>
>>
>> A more ‘real world’ example might include holding the change in Cash instead
>> of putting it back in your envelope stash location, thus:
>>
>> Dr. Expenses:Food:Dining Out $58
>> Dr. Assets:Current Assets:Cash $ 2
>> Cr. Assets:Current Assets:Envelopes:Dining Out $60
>>
>> Looking over your last reply more I think I see where you’re ending up with
>> extra transactions and splits. And while I know I said ‘accounts’ are just
>> ‘reasons’ and not necessarily related to physical things, perhaps treating
>> the allocated money as more of a physical asset would help.
>>
>> It looks like you want to keep track of allocating money and ‘spending it’
>> out of that allocation as a separate ‘layer’ from the actual location of the
>> funds and why they leave your hands, that is you want to record the
>> transaction TWICE. That’s adding complexity that I don’t think is needed.
>>
>> This is why the allocated sub-accounts belong under one or more regular
>> asset accounts.
>>
>> If the money physically is in your control, your wallet, a safe, a drawer of
>> envelopes or such, I’d put the Allocated and Allocated:Subs like so for more
>> regular and discretionary purposes:
>>
>> Assets:Current Assets:Cash
>> Assets:Current Assets:Cash:Allocated
>> Assets:Current Assets:Cash:Allocated:Dining Out
>> Assets:Current Assets:Cash:Allocated:Movies
>> Assets:Current Assets:Cash:Allocated:Snacks
>> Assets:Current Assets:Cash:Allocated:Groceries
>> etc.
>>
>> But if the funds really never leave your checking account until you spend
>> them, or you regularly write checks/pay online for some purposes I’d use
>> this:
>>
>> Assets:Current Assets:Checking
>> Assets:Current Assets:Checking:Allocated
>> Assets:Current Assets:Checking:Allocated:Rent
>> Assets:Current Assets:Checking:Allocated:Utilities
>> Assets:Current Assets:Checking:Allocated:Loans
>> Assets:Current Assets:Checking:Allocated:Insurance
>> etc.
>>
>> You might even put some of the Allocated subs under a credit union/savings
>> account that is rarely touched for the less frequent purposes:
>>
>> Assets:Current Assets:Credit Union
>> Assets:Current Assets:Credit Union:Allocated
>> Assets:Current Assets:Credit Union:Allocated:Charity
>> Assets:Current Assets:Credit Union:Allocated:Gifts
>> Assets:Current Assets:Credit Union:Allocated:Vacation
>>
>>
>> You could alternately move ‘Allocated’ up one level if it has a separate
>> physical location than your usual wallet/stash, or even drop it entirely and
>> put the subs directly as children of their physical location you’ll likely
>> be spending from.
>>
>> Separating the subs according to from where you’re likely to spend their
>> funds will help cut down on either inter-sub transfers, or as I’m about to
>> show below, spending funds saved for one purpose for a different one.
>>
>> In all cases, record the credit side of the transaction for any expense from
>> where it actually comes from. As I mentioned, I don’t think transfers back
>> to the Checking/Cash/Savings parents are necessary, just credit against the
>> Allocated:Sub - you know where it physically was, and if the actual balance
>> doesn’t go back to the sub - and goes to a different level account for other
>> general expenses then include that as a split to save yourself a separate
>> transfer transaction.
>>
>> Having the subs under their respective ‘real world’ location where the funds
>> reside also allows you to still maintain at least a glance look at how much
>> is in that physical location. (Parents in the CoA include the balances of
>> the child accounts) But these child accounts are problematic for reconciling
>> as noted above when dealing with institutional accounts.
>>
>> I’m considering re-implementing this for myself as subs of ‘Savings’ (or
>> moving Savings to a sub of ‘Envelopes’) and instead of transferring money
>> around for expenses not related to the sub’s purpose - just recording the
>> expense there anyway. This way, I can see if there are any expenses in say
>> Envelopes:Vacation that are for expense accounts OTHER than vacations, like
>> Dining Out. That shouldn’t happen right? This would give an at a glance look
>> to see why my vacation bucket is always shallow. This also gets an added
>> advantage that now I can run a Cash Flow report using just one sub at a
>> time. (and save the configuration) That will show me what accounts had money
>> flow into that sub, and what expense accounts money flowed out of the sub
>> for. That will be an eye opener I’m sure. All that, and no special report or
>> functionality needed to be added by programmers.
>>
>> My main hangup is duplicating the formula and triggers for the allocating
>> that MoneyWell uses. (which is VERY convenient) I’ll still have to calculate
>> that outside of GnuCash and use the result to enter a transaction. (or
>> better yet, create the transaction in a spreadsheet and import it - perhaps
>> I can script it and maybe even make it a mini-app with an Automator
>> Workflow) The goal is to enter the receipt of funds - say a paycheck and
>> then automatically allocate portions to different subs based on priority and
>> if they are ‘full’ or not based on a savings goal.
>>
>> If you have any other approach for figuring out amounts to allocate, I’m
>> game for trying it.
>>
>> Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the subject.
>>
>> Thanks for starting the topic, it’s helped me consider tackling this again.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>>
>>> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:22 AM, Matt Graham <matt_graham2...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 😊 You beat me to the punch on a couple of things. Yes, I have the tendency
>>> to over-complicate. I think there needs to be a simple way to do what
>>> people want though...
>>>
>>> I started plotting things out more and came to similar conclusions.
>>>
>>> First, when I say “fake” I mean “not corresponding to physical money –
>>> cash, account balance etc”. You’re right, its bad terminology, and I like
>>> the way you think of accounts as just a “thing”.
>>>
>>> Second, I have tried a number of other programs for my financial needs. All
>>> of them have various advantages and disadvantages. So with no clear winner,
>>> I thought I’d try to make GNUCash better...
>>>
>>> “Categories” is a vague word and risks things getting complicated. Perhaps
>>> all of this allocation of money concept would work best if GNUCash
>>> introduced “categories” purely for allocation? Applications where we are
>>> allocating things on the side without actually changing our accounts? Lets
>>> keep that aside and see if it works once we agree on everything else –
>>> sounds complicated (and I cringe at adding a new ‘semi-account’ type).
>>>
>>> Thinking about things further (and trying it) I agree 100% that liabilities
>>> aren’t involved. Allocating money to something decreases the amount of cash
>>> (agree with your term – LET “cash” = “liquid assets”), which would
>>> correspond to a decreased liability... Makes no sense having negative
>>> liabilities. My bad.
>>>
>>> I tried fiddling with equity as you (tentatively) suggested too, but this
>>> didn’t really make sense either. You end up with negative equity accounts
>>> showing how much you have to spend...
>>>
>>> So yes – I agree It is asset to asset... Decreasing cash available (asset)
>>> is balanced by increasing cash to spend on a purpose later (asset).
>>>
>>> Creating a sub-account to your physical cash or bank account to track
>>> allocated money is only good if you are always going to spend out of that
>>> account. If I’m tracking my spending money from my bank account, but then
>>> spend out of my cash on spending money...
>>> Dr increase Expense
>>> Cr decrease physical cash I used to pay
>>> Cr decrease the amount in that sub account – gets it out of that sub
>>> account....
>>> Dr increase the amount in parent account – puts it back in the parent...
>>> It works, I guess, but just seems weird transferring balance between the
>>> child and parent like this.
>>>
>>> So they way I’m thinking of trialling is having a separate asset account
>>> “Allocated Assets” (separate from Current and Fixed assets). That way when
>>> allocating money the decrease (cr) in current assets (an account I’ve put
>>> as “Money Allocated”) is balanced by the increase (dr) in the specific
>>> “Allocated Assets”:”Spending Money” account.
>>> Spending is the same as above, but the increase to make “Money Allocated”
>>> less negative is balanced by the decrease in the relevant Allocated assets
>>> account....
>>>
>>> Of course, all of this still means i’m entering four lines for one
>>> expenditure. The good news is that I only really have four accounts that
>>> involve allocated money like this (2 spending money, Holiday, and
>>> restaurant/café spending). Since all of this is a very common application
>>> for most personal users, I’m wondering if there is an easier way –
>>> “categories” defined against an expense account that just track how much
>>> you have “allocated” to that purpose? Would need both aspects – viewing
>>> “how much I have left” to spend for that purpose (budget line item?), but
>>> also ensuring “I have the money in my accounts to be able to buy it”. That
>>> all sounds too complicated – it would be easier to allow the user to tag an
>>> expense account, and have GNUCash automatically maintain the necessary
>>> “Allocated” asset accounts...
>>>
>>> I don’t think I am overthinking too far though, purely because it seems
>>> like a common thing people want. Hence, solution required... Philosophy of
>>> accounting tells us that this kind of allocation is: double entry on
>>> Asset/Asset when allocating, two double entries (Asset/Expense and
>>> Asset/Asset) when spending.
>>>
>>> Hmmm.... Same conclusion as before – I’m going to try it out for a while
>>> before suggesting any program changes...
>>>
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> From: Adrien Monteleone
>>> Sent: Friday, 26 January 2018 4:32 PM
>>> To: GNU Cash User
>>> Subject: Re: Future allocated money vs Budgets
>>>
>>> Here’s my attempt to save you a few months…
>>>
>>> I think you’re spinning wheels into something more complicated than it
>>> needs to be.
>>>
>>> For starters, there’s no reason any liability account or expense account
>>> should enter the picture of ‘saving’ for any particular purpose. ‘Spending
>>> Money’ savings is NOT an expense. Why would anyone think to record it that
>>> way?
>>>
>>> An expense is when you actually receive something of value and you owe
>>> someone else in exchange. (goods or services)
>>>
>>> If you pay for those goods or services at the same time you receive them,
>>> you just record the expense.
>>>
>>> If however, you receive the goods or services and then pay later - an
>>> accrued expense - then you use a liability account to track what you owe.
>>> (you still record the expense when you receive the goods or services)
>>>
>>> If you pay for goods or services *before* receiving them, it’s not an
>>> expense yet. (a deferred expense) It’s a shift from one asset, likely
>>> 'cash', to another asset called 'prepaid expenses.’ (cash is generic for
>>> liquid assets, this includes checking and savings) When you actually use
>>> that asset, that is, either receive the service or the goods, then you
>>> record the expense. (you’d also do this for other assets you acquire and
>>> use up later - like supplies. Depreciation is an example of a deferred
>>> expense for special assets you paid up front for but use up slowly)
>>>
>>> If however, you’ve not received any goods or services, and you don’t know
>>> if you actually will and haven’t yet paid for them, then expenses and
>>> liabilities aren’t even in the picture.
>>>
>>> All you are doing is segregating assets for informational purposes. (the
>>> practice of ‘envelope budgeting’ fits this model) The only accounts
>>> involved are asset accounts.
>>>
>>> They aren’t ‘fake’ any more than any other account in your books is fake.
>>> If by ‘fake’ you mean they don’t correspond to a real world account held at
>>> some institution then that goes for nearly all accounts in your ledger save
>>> a small handful. (unless you are quite the prolific banker, borrower,
>>> investor or credit spender)
>>>
>>> The point of accounts is to track where money comes from and goes to. Some
>>> of those accounts *might* have real-world counterparts, but they are all no
>>> more ‘real’ or ‘fake’ than any other. Accounts are ‘reasons’, not physical
>>> things. (note, ‘account’ is not some special term. You have an ‘account’ at
>>> a bank, because they created one in their books to track the money you gave
>>> them. They have lots of other accounts on their books that don’t correspond
>>> like you think they do. Your ‘account’ at your bank is simply their
>>> ‘reason’ for having money that doesn’t belong to them.) I might draw the
>>> ire of those wanting to have GnuCash stand apart from Intuit products, but
>>> basically, your Chart of Accounts is just a Chart of Categories, Chart of
>>> Classifications, or Chart of Reasons to be more accurate. It is a system of
>>> classification. Don’t think even of ‘account’ as a thing, it’s a really a
>>> verb in this sense - you are ‘accounting’ for why something is or why it
>>> happened.
>>>
>>> For the purpose of planning expenses, the GnuCash budgeting module can
>>> help. (certainly, it is limited and needs improvement)
>>>
>>> For the purpose of putting money aside or segregating it so you don’t
>>> ‘accidentally’ spend it, that’s just financial discipline. Some people find
>>> that they can utilize sub-accounts or special savings/asset accounts for
>>> this purpose to ‘hide’ the money from themselves. This can cause a mess
>>> with reconciliation though.
>>>
>>> Budgeting is the process of planning your expenses. Saving is the process
>>> of not spending. The two are not the same thing. (but certainly one
>>> influences the other)
>>>
>>> Using sub-accounts or other asset accounts has the advantage of being able
>>> to see how much you’ve saved, but not how much you have left towards a
>>> goal. I suppose one could get creative with equity accounts in this regard,
>>> but it might be more work than necessary. (I hesitated to even mention it)
>>> Certainly a special set of ‘savings goals’ liability accounts could be used
>>> as well, but there again, this is confusing the issue of what a liability
>>> really is or isn’t. Your balance sheet would be all out of whack. (unless
>>> you don’t care)
>>>
>>> With the envelope method, you aren’t creating liabilities by saving. (even
>>> negative liabilities!) You’re just taking some of your assets and putting
>>> them inside envelopes. Those are still assets. They don’t change their
>>> nature because of the envelope. You don’t suddenly have this not-quite
>>> nefarious non-expense or imaginary negative debt. You just separated your
>>> cash to keep it out of your wallet so you can pay your bills, buy gifts,
>>> make charitable donations, or have a small savings to cover emergencies
>>> instead of splurging on impulse buys or going out to dinner instead of
>>> cooking.
>>>
>>> What you have are assets that you want to earmark, at least temporarily and
>>> not even by hard and fast rule necessarily. You really don’t *owe* that
>>> money to anyone.
>>>
>>> So I would just use asset accounts.
>>>
>>> No extra complicated transactions. No contra-balanced liabilities. Your
>>> assets are always correct. Your liabilities are always correct. You only
>>> become confused as how complicated you make the process. (how many
>>> ‘envelope’ asset sub-accounts you create and where you put them)
>>>
>>> I’m also probably going to draw ire by suggesting another software package
>>> as a better fit for this purpose. (at least at this stage of GnuCash
>>> development) Certainly, some people have managed to finagle an ‘envelope’
>>> method using special accounts in combination with either manual or
>>> scheduled transactions. (which are somewhat limited for the purpose) Most
>>> likely, if you really want to stick with GnuCash, you’d have to set up a
>>> spreadsheet to handle the envelope part, at least the calculations as to
>>> how much to segregate at each opportunity and keep track of any goals.
>>>
>>> But I’d proffer that something along the lines of MoneyWell is more suited
>>> to the task, especially for those who live from a checking account. As far
>>> as I know it’s Mac only however. (there are mobile versions, but I don’t
>>> think they are stand-alone) For those who handle a fair amount of cash, or
>>> want to track investments and asset values, or need to track A/P and A/R,
>>> GnuCash is better suited. MoneyWell was designed specifically to implement
>>> the envelope method (using ‘buckets’) to automatically ‘flow’ money you
>>> receive to targeted purposes such as your utilities, rent, car, savings,
>>> etc. I’ve played with it quite a bit, and I’d like GnuCash to have
>>> something similar, but I find it too limited for all my other accounting
>>> purposes. If there were a way to get transactions in and out easily, I
>>> might use it for daily purposes and budgeting and keep GnuCash for the
>>> overall big picture stuff.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Adrien
>>>
>>>> On Jan 25, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Matt Graham <matt_graham2...@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi All!
>>>> I’m going to discuss (and get people’s opinions) on a way in which many
>>>> users (myself included) struggle to get “what they want” from GNUCash
>>>> budgeting. GNUcash is very strict on proper double-entry bookkeeping
>>>> practices (which I love). In accounting, “budgeting” means that you are
>>>> plotting out exactly when you are going to change account values in what
>>>> way. It is forecasting the future states of the accounts.
>>>>
>>>> So if you have a monthly bill of $50 you need to pay – easy. You enter it
>>>> into the monthly periods - both expense account and asset account. You
>>>> know you will spend that amount, and you (usually) know what asset account
>>>> you are spending it out of. This is budgeting, and allows you to see that
>>>> you are not losing money overall and sending yourself broke by end of year.
>>>>
>>>> The next thing that people call “budgeting” is when they want to save up
>>>> for something, but don’t have a distinct plan of when it will be spent or
>>>> how it will be paid for. My example is “Spending Money” (but perhaps
>>>> “holiday savings” is a better example). I allocate $100 every month to
>>>> myself and my wife to spend as we want (hobbies, clothes, etc). If we
>>>> don’t spend it, it builds up allowing us to buy bigger stuff later. So I
>>>> should put $100 in each budget period against those two expense accounts,
>>>> right? NO, NO, NO!!!! From an accounting perspective, nothing is
>>>> necessarily going to be spent out of my “Spending money” expense account.
>>>> It is an allocation of money, not a spending of money. I can’t predict in
>>>> advance any real changes to my asset or expense accounts from this monthly
>>>> “allocation of money”. What I am doing from an accounting perspective is
>>>> setting up a liability on myself – a promise to give money later to
>>>> someone (in this case a promise to give money to myself). The reduction in
>>>> my assets (cash) is as completely fake as the increase in liability – none
>>>> of my cash or credit accounts have changed in value.
>>>>
>>>> For now I’m going to call this application “Future allocated money”, and
>>>> controversially say that it is NOT “budgeting”.
>>>>
>>>> So if you have some ‘budget’ purpose such as this, and lament that GNUCash
>>>> can’t give you the running total, the way to deal with it is the way this
>>>> person describes:
>>>> https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fallmybrain.com%2F2008%2F12%2F15%2Fbetter-budgeting-with-gnucash%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2d1add0a2c6a4643591d08d5647e306d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636525415498305568&sdata=s61s%2FSFcqv5L1C0v2xEma0%2BbaPC4eQl2EyPXGHLgTcc%3D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>>> The fake asset account is used to show the money that has been allocated
>>>> for certain purposes in the future (ie is unavailable). It needs to be a
>>>> fake account, because usually we don’t know in advanced which asset
>>>> account we are going to spend the allocated money out of. If you know
>>>> which asset account you are going to be spending the money out of, then
>>>> sure you can just create a sub-account to record the amount allocated to
>>>> this. In this case, you don’t really need to record the liability at all
>>>> (the liability is effectively shown in your sub-account), and the
>>>> transactions become easier – just transferring between that sub-account
>>>> and the actual expense account when you spend. But for most people, you
>>>> need a fake asset account because you don’t know in advance which account
>>>> you will spend out of.
>>>>
>>>> The fake liability account is your running amount you can spend at any
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> <b>The problem in doing this?</b>
>>>> It creates extra transactions that look really complicated. Allocating the
>>>> money is one fake transaction involving the fake “asset budgeted” account
>>>> and the “fake liability” account (and in the website they allocate money
>>>> from a pay packet rather than periodically, so it involves the real income
>>>> and real asset account too) . Spending money against a category affects
>>>> the expense account, the asset account, the fake liability account, and
>>>> the fake “asset budgeted” account... Looks confusing at first until your
>>>> head gets around it.
>>>>
>>>> <b>So how can we make all this easier on people?</b> (both to understand
>>>> and then to implement)? It is a pretty common thing to do.
>>>> Perhaps having some way to mark an expense account as “future allocated
>>>> money” based, and having the program automatically create the necessary
>>>> fake liability and asset accounts? And perhaps any expenditure recorded
>>>> against that expense account would be auto amended to include the effects
>>>> on the fake liability and fake asset account?
>>>>
>>>> I think I’m going to try all this for a few more months (and await your
>>>> thoughts!) before coming up with a proposal.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>
>>>> Matt
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