goanet-digest Tuesday, May 21 2002 Volume 01 : Number 3995
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In this issue:
Re: [Goanet] Sunila's MESSAGE
Re: [Goanet] Sunila's MESSAGE
Re: [Goanet] re: Scientific Method
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:12:53 +0400
From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Sunila's MESSAGE
>From: "J. Almeida" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Goanet] Sunila's MESSAGE
>Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:23:10 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Sunila writes:
>"If you actually look at the custodians
>of organised religion you will find a whole horde of
>perverts ranging from
>paedophiles and child/female abusers to drug addicts
>to violence
>recommenders to revenge fanatics to racists to basic
>cheats and liars and
>egoistic chauvinists. And most people actually follow
>them blindly"
>
>I fully agree with Sunila that we should not overlook
>the failings of the custodians of organized religion.
>I do not have access to survey findings on these
>questions, but my hunch is that the incidence rate of
>sin among them is no lower than in the general
>population. When it comes to strong behavioural
>predispositions such as child abuse, such people might
>plausibly even gravitate towards positions of trust in
>society (scout leaders, teachers, doctors, therapists
>of various sorts, priests etc.) Let's not put any
>human being on a pedestal.
I am glad you said that. And that is exactly why I don't believe in
organised religion. I have no problem with people following Jesus, Krishna
or Allah. But why does a person following Jesus need to swear allegiance to
the Vatican Church ? Why does a person following Krishna allow himself to be
brainwashed by the VHP ? And why does a persona following Allah become a
terrorist ?
Christ said I am the only way. Krishna said leave everything including your
race & religion and surrender to me. Buddha said there is only one path and
that is what I preach. Why do we think they are separate entities ? Why
can't we believe that they are the same Almighty manifesting in different
forms at different times ? After all, all religions preach that God is one
!!!
Why is there a need to create rigid structures and construct huge walls to
divide society in order for a group or groups of people to attain power by
using religion as a tool, until the whole thing becomes a sordid affair
sogged with violence, murder, plunder and crime ?
>Sunila also wrote:
>"if all in India gave up their religion, everyone
>would
>focus on real issues like the economy, education,
>infrastructure, health,
>sanitation, and development"
>
>Politicians are supposed to focus on such real and
>important issues (I would add law and order at the top
>of the list, if Sunila permits). However, even
>anti-religious politicians could include:
I don't agree with you Joel. Politicians like priests are a reflection of
society. They will only deal with issues that they think are dear to people.
Religion, caste, and such communal divides have a lot of emotional appeal.
The politicians exploit this emotional appeal to create vote banks and to
gain power. How can we expect them to focus on important issues instead of
religion and caste when we allow them to manipulate us in this way? It is
only when we give importance to issues like corruption, law and order (I
agree with including that :-)), education, health, etc. and when elections
are fought on such issues that we will see better governance.
A recent example is unfolding in Goa. There is absolutely no doubt that
Manohar Parrikar's Govt. has been the best Govt. we have had in the last
thirty years at least. He has achieved a lot in a year. Many of us including
myself do think that he could have achieved more, but it is a fact that he
has achieved much more than others. Nobody can deny that. One cannot regard
him as communal. His party, the BJP is an openly communal party. But then
the Congress is also a communal party although it does so covertly. And the
MGP and the other political parties are overwhelmingly communal and
casteist. Almost all the Congress candidates are habitual defectors, totally
corrupt and incompetent. But many people are ready to ignore that and bring
them back to power because of their religious and communal leanings and
fears. How can we then expect these elected candidates to give us better
governance when we have not voted them to power to give us precisely that ?
Why can we not actually ignore the political parties and vote for the right
candidate ? Why can't we ignore religious leanings and communal and casteist
divides and vote for better governance ? But if one says that, one is
accused of siding with the saffron. But whether one sides with the saffron
or the green (assuming the Congress colour is green), is not the question.
The question is better governance, better living standards, and better
opportunities. Why don't we think like that ?
Cheers,
Sunila
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:12:52 +0400
From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Sunila's MESSAGE
>From: "J. Almeida" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Goanet] Sunila's MESSAGE
>Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:23:10 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Sunila writes:
>"If you actually look at the custodians
>of organised religion you will find a whole horde of
>perverts ranging from
>paedophiles and child/female abusers to drug addicts
>to violence
>recommenders to revenge fanatics to racists to basic
>cheats and liars and
>egoistic chauvinists. And most people actually follow
>them blindly"
>
>I fully agree with Sunila that we should not overlook
>the failings of the custodians of organized religion.
>I do not have access to survey findings on these
>questions, but my hunch is that the incidence rate of
>sin among them is no lower than in the general
>population. When it comes to strong behavioural
>predispositions such as child abuse, such people might
>plausibly even gravitate towards positions of trust in
>society (scout leaders, teachers, doctors, therapists
>of various sorts, priests etc.) Let's not put any
>human being on a pedestal.
I am glad you said that. And that is exactly why I don't believe in
organised religion. I have no problem with people following Jesus, Krishna
or Allah. But why does a person following Jesus need to swear allegiance to
the Vatican Church ? Why does a person following Krishna allow himself to be
brainwashed by the VHP ? And why does a persona following Allah become a
terrorist ?
Christ said I am the only way. Krishna said leave everything including your
race & religion and surrender to me. Buddha said there is only one path and
that is what I preach. Why do we think they are separate entities ? Why
can't we believe that they are the same Almighty manifesting in different
forms at different times ? After all, all religions preach that God is one
!!!
Why is there a need to create rigid structures and construct huge walls to
divide society in order for a group or groups of people to attain power by
using religion as a tool, until the whole thing becomes a sordid affair
sogged with violence, murder, plunder and crime ?
>Sunila also wrote:
>"if all in India gave up their religion, everyone
>would
>focus on real issues like the economy, education,
>infrastructure, health,
>sanitation, and development"
>
>Politicians are supposed to focus on such real and
>important issues (I would add law and order at the top
>of the list, if Sunila permits). However, even
>anti-religious politicians could include:
I don't agree with you Joel. Politicians like priests are a reflection of
society. They will only deal with issues that they think are dear to people.
Religion, caste, and such communal divides have a lot of emotional appeal.
The politicians exploit this emotional appeal to create vote banks and to
gain power. How can we expect them to focus on important issues instead of
religion and caste when we allow them to manipulate us in this way? It is
only when we give importance to issues like corruption, law and order (I
agree with including that :-)), education, health, etc. and when elections
are fought on such issues that we will see better governance.
A recent example is unfolding in Goa. There is absolutely no doubt that
Manohar Parrikar's Govt. has been the best Govt. we have had in the last
thirty years at least. He has achieved a lot in a year. Many of us including
myself do think that he could have achieved more, but it is a fact that he
has achieved much more than others. Nobody can deny that. One cannot regard
him as communal. His party, the BJP is an openly communal party. But then
the Congress is also a communal party although it does so covertly. And the
MGP and the other political parties are overwhelmingly communal and
casteist. Almost all the Congress candidates are habitual defectors, totally
corrupt and incompetent. But many people are ready to ignore that and bring
them back to power because of their religious and communal leanings and
fears. How can we then expect these elected candidates to give us better
governance when we have not voted them to power to give us precisely that ?
Why can we not actually ignore the political parties and vote for the right
candidate ? Why can't we ignore religious leanings and communal and casteist
divides and vote for better governance ? But if one says that, one is
accused of siding with the saffron. But whether one sides with the saffron
or the green (assuming the Congress colour is green), is not the question.
The question is better governance, better living standards, and better
opportunities. Why don't we think like that ?
Cheers,
Sunila
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:39:56 +0400
From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] re: Scientific Method
>From: "santoshhelekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Goanet] re: Scientific Method
>Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:24:29 -0000
>The closest that somebody has come to saying something like
>that are VHP types who have claimed that Vedas contain scientifically
>accurate statements, such as the exact value for the speed of light.
Actually the VHP only parrots what others say. Nobel prize winners like
Romain Rolland have said a lot about the Vedas and whatever. Let me ask you
have you ever read the Vedas ? Do you know Sanskrit ?
Also, all this talk about logic and science and proof. There are so many
things in this world which science hasn't yet discovered. But that does not
mean it does not exist. Intuition, gut feeling, sixth sense and whatever
else you may call it does exist but unfortunately science lacks in being
able to prove it. Similarly, there are some things which are beyond proof.
They are simply there ....you cannot deny it.
To quote someone I love and respect dearly : "Its the logic that instills
the faith! Its the logic that breaks the faith! e.g. One has faith in
antibiotics for curing illness based on the logic, since it did so in the
past. Also the same faith is broken by the logic again when one knows that
antibiotics are harmful in the long run for the body.
There is another type of faith that transcends logic. This comes from the
gut feeling, which no logic can make or break. It is from a deeper dimension
of Existence."
Jesus was asked to prove that he is the son of God. He said nothing. Does
that mean he wasn't the son of God ? Somethings are beyond proof and this is
just one of them. Also why should the son of God try to prove that he is the
son of God if he does not desire to do so ? If a person has a deep pain in
his leg and is asked to prove it, can he do so without a reasonable doubt ?
So does that mean he does not have the pain ? Somethings just exist because
they simply do.
All this talk of logic and science is a failure because it is all based on
assumptions. When the assumptions crumble the scientific theorams crash. So
what then is the worth of all this ? Yes, it is worth a lot. But not
everything. There is something beyond and that is God. And God cannot be
caged by organised religion or science.
Now have I let loose the flood gates for a whole barrage of flames from
science supporters or organised religion supporters ? ;-)
Cheers,
Sunila
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of goanet-digest V1 #3995
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