goanet-digest Tuesday, May 21 2002 Volume 01 : Number 3996
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this issue:
Re: [Goanet] re: Scientific Method
[Goanet] Vedas, Antibiotics, etc
Re: [Goanet] Vedas, Antibiotics, etc
[Goanet] There is a realisation that there should be peace in Gujarat
See end of digest for information on subscribing/unsusbcribing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:39:56 +0400
From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] re: Scientific Method
>From: "santoshhelekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Goanet] re: Scientific Method
>Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:24:29 -0000
>The closest that somebody has come to saying something like
>that are VHP types who have claimed that Vedas contain scientifically
>accurate statements, such as the exact value for the speed of light.
Actually the VHP only parrots what others say. Nobel prize winners like
Romain Rolland have said a lot about the Vedas and whatever. Let me ask you
have you ever read the Vedas ? Do you know Sanskrit ?
Also, all this talk about logic and science and proof. There are so many
things in this world which science hasn't yet discovered. But that does not
mean it does not exist. Intuition, gut feeling, sixth sense and whatever
else you may call it does exist but unfortunately science lacks in being
able to prove it. Similarly, there are some things which are beyond proof.
They are simply there ....you cannot deny it.
To quote someone I love and respect dearly : "Its the logic that instills
the faith! Its the logic that breaks the faith! e.g. One has faith in
antibiotics for curing illness based on the logic, since it did so in the
past. Also the same faith is broken by the logic again when one knows that
antibiotics are harmful in the long run for the body.
There is another type of faith that transcends logic. This comes from the
gut feeling, which no logic can make or break. It is from a deeper dimension
of Existence."
Jesus was asked to prove that he is the son of God. He said nothing. Does
that mean he wasn't the son of God ? Somethings are beyond proof and this is
just one of them. Also why should the son of God try to prove that he is the
son of God if he does not desire to do so ? If a person has a deep pain in
his leg and is asked to prove it, can he do so without a reasonable doubt ?
So does that mean he does not have the pain ? Somethings just exist because
they simply do.
All this talk of logic and science is a failure because it is all based on
assumptions. When the assumptions crumble the scientific theorams crash. So
what then is the worth of all this ? Yes, it is worth a lot. But not
everything. There is something beyond and that is God. And God cannot be
caged by organised religion or science.
Now have I let loose the flood gates for a whole barrage of flames from
science supporters or organised religion supporters ? ;-)
Cheers,
Sunila
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:42:20 -0000
From: "santoshhelekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Goanet] Vedas, Antibiotics, etc
Sunila Muzawar wrote on the Scientific Method thread:
>
>Actually the VHP only parrots what others say. Nobel prize winners
>like Romain Rolland have said a lot about the Vedas and whatever.
>
Romain Rolland got a Nobel prize in literature. He was not a
scientist. As far as I know, he said nothing about the Vedas and the
speed of light. He would not have been qualified to say anything
about the scientific validity of the Vedas. Please don't try to
confuse issues here.
By the way, he was a great supporter of scientific rationalism.
>
>Let me ask you have you ever read the Vedas ? Do you know Sanskrit ?
>
No for both questions. Have you, and Do you? If you have and do,
Please enlighten us in English or Konkani. I am particularly
interested in the speed of light issue.
The English synopsis of the Vedas in Hiriyanna's book on Indian
Philosophy that I have says nothing about that.
>
>Intuition, gut feeling, sixth sense and whatever else you may call
>it does exist but unfortunately science lacks in being able to prove
>it.
>
Are you sure? Have you read the current scientific literature on
these matters? I know there is a lot of published research that deals
with this. I would love to know whether your assertion is based on
the conclusions of this research, before I accept it.
>
>Similarly, there are some things which are beyond proof. They are
>simply there ....you cannot deny it.
>
How do you know this? I deny it, in the absence of evidence that your
statement is true.
>
>One has faith in antibiotics for curing illness based on the logic,
>since it did so in the past.
>
Antibiotics cure illnesses whether you have faith in them or not.
This is a scientific fact. Scientists know a great deal about how and
why antibiotics work.
>
>Also the same faith is broken by the logic again when one knows that
>antibiotics are harmful in the long run for the body.
>
Is this a general statement about human psychology or about the
effectiveness of antibiotics being intertwined with faith? If it is
the latter, there is scientific evidence that contradicts your
statement.
>
>Somethings just exist because they simply do.
>
It is great fun and enormously useful to find out why they exist and
how. Science has been pretty successful at doing that.
>
>All this talk of logic and science is a failure because it is all
>based on assumptions. When the assumptions crumble the scientific
>theorams crash.
>
What assumptions?
>
>There is something beyond and that is God.
>
Again, How do you know that?
Cheers,
Santosh
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:39:04 +0400
From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Vedas, Antibiotics, etc
>From: "santoshhelekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Goanet] Vedas, Antibiotics, etc
>Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:42:20 -0000
>>Romain Rolland got a Nobel prize in literature. He was not a
>scientist. As far as I know, he said nothing about the Vedas and the
>speed of light. He would not have been qualified to say anything
>about the scientific validity of the Vedas. Please don't try to
>confuse issues here.
>
>By the way, he was a great supporter of scientific rationalism.
I read his name a long time ago in connection with something he said on the
Vedas. I will try and dig it up and if I do I will let you know. But you
know everything you have said about him reinforces my memory that it was him
only that I had read about in connection with the Vedas. After all science
and literature and the Vedas can be a heady combination. ;-)
> >Let me ask you have you ever read the Vedas ? Do you know Sanskrit ?
> >
>
>No for both questions. Have you, and Do you? If you have and do,
>Please enlighten us in English or Konkani. I am particularly
>interested in the speed of light issue.
Actually I haven't read the Vedas and I don't know Sanskrit. But would love
to know more. If nothing else, it would give me an insight into Indian
history. But one of the reasons I asked is to show you how illogical your
approach is. Just because you haven't read it and don't know more about it
does not mean it does not exist. :-)
> >Intuition, gut feeling, sixth sense and whatever else you may call
> >it does exist but unfortunately science lacks in being able to prove
> >it.
>Are you sure? Have you read the current scientific literature on
>these matters? I know there is a lot of published research that deals
>with this. I would love to know whether your assertion is based on
>the conclusions of this research, before I accept it.
I do read but am not a scientist or a psychologist. But recent findings on
proving mental telepathy and healing through sending distant mental
vibrations (includes prayer) is proving that thoughts or energy does travel
from one person to another over thousands of miles. I had read that The
California Pacific Medical Center is involved in this research and is
getting very encouraging findings. But why go so far ? Haven't you seen that
a patient responds better to treatment when he/she has the will to get
better and when they don't their health deteriorates dramatically despite
all the medicines and treatments ? Can medical science address that ?
> >Similarly, there are some things which are beyond proof. They are
> >simply there ....you cannot deny it.
> >
>
>How do you know this? I deny it, in the absence of evidence that your
>statement is true.
Just because you don't know you deny it. That doesn't mean it does not
exist. A hundred years ago if someone was told that you could be heard
thousands of miles away they would have laughed. Yet, today the telephone is
a reality. If sound waves can be captured and transmitted why do you deny
that thoughts can also be electro-magnetic waves which can be transmitted,
accepted and responded to ? Just because science hasn't discovered it yet,
it does not mean it does not exist. It is a superficial and narrow vision
that says that if you haven't seen it or heard it or proven it in some
physical way, it does not exist. That does not mean one should get loony and
spaced out. But to deny it is equal folly.
>Antibiotics cure illnesses whether you have faith in them or not.
>This is a scientific fact. Scientists know a great deal about how and
>why antibiotics work.
Yes, and now they are finding that new bacteria are coming about which are
immune to existing antibiotics. So they are caught up in the vicious cycle
of trying to exterminate every new bacteria that comes about. Unfortunately,
very little effort actually goes into finding out the source of this
bacteria. I don't deny the advantages of antibiotics. But just because
science found this magical remedy does not mean there aren't any more
remedies out there. It also does not mean that there isn't a way to prevent
the bacteria from occurring in the first place.
>Is this a general statement about human psychology or about the
>effectiveness of antibiotics being intertwined with faith? If it is
>the latter, there is scientific evidence that contradicts your
>statement.
It is the latter. I don't care what science currently says, I cannot deny
the fact that I have many side effects when I take a dose of antibiotics. It
does actually address infections effectively, but it creates other problems
in my body. I am hundred percent sure that I am not the only one to have
suffered from the side effects of antibiotics. And science keeps changing.
They told you meat is good for your body and then now they say virtually the
opposite and advocate vegetarianism. So which scientific theoram does one
believe ? Especially since it may be contradicted some time later.
> >Somethings just exist because they simply do.
> >
>
>It is great fun and enormously useful to find out why they exist and
>how. Science has been pretty successful at doing that.
Sure, but they have not completed the job. And just because they haven't
found something out yet, to deny the existence of that something is the
narrowest view ever. It is like someone asking for statistics to prove that
Hindus have been killed in Kashmir ...a question which actually occurred
recently on this forum. Just because someone hasn't collected these
statistics or just because these statistics aren't handy give outs doesn't
mean the Hindus haven't been killed. One reads about the killings
practically everyday in the news but unfortunately, someone needs an audited
report of statistics to believe it before you can accept it. I tell you it
is absurd.
> >There is something beyond and that is God.
> >
>
>Again, How do you know that?
Because I love him and because I relate to him. Now don't ask what is love.
After all can science truly prove an abstract emotion like LOVE ? You just
know it is. ;-)
Cheers,
Sunila
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:47:04 +0400
From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Goanet] There is a realisation that there should be peace in Gujarat
The Rediff Interview/K P S Gill
Two months after communal riots broke out on Gujarat, the Union government
appointed the former director general of Punjab police, K P S Gill, as
security advisor to Chief Minister Narendra Modi to check violence in the
state.
Well known for crushing militancy in Punjab during the Khalistan separatist
movement, the now retired IPS officer has earlier successfully tackled
communal incidents as chief of the Assam police.
In an interview to Senior Editor Sheela Bhatt in Ahmedabad, Gill speaks
about his new assignment.
What is your perception of the situation in Gujarat?
At the time of Partition, when the riots started, I was in Lahore and was
about 12 years old. One knows what it is to be a minority in a riot
situation. After Godhra [massacre], the next day a very large number of
people turned out on the streets and indulged in violence.
What happened in Gulmurg society and Naroda Patia is inexcusable because it
was a failure at the local level.
I haven't visited Godhra. I can't say whether it was pre-planned or not. I
haven't spoken to the concerned officers. I am concentrating on
re-establishing peace. Chief Minister Narendra Modi has asked the committees
to investigate rape cases, and offered help to reconstruct religious places.
He has also said that new first information reports will be registered. He
has made many important announcements.
Today, I feel the shock about Godhra is over. There is a realization that
there should be peace in the state. That is a factor that constantly helps
the police. The desire has come into the minds of people, and converting
that desire into actuality is not a difficult task.
Your critics say you are a policeman while the situation requires a
socio-political solution.
[Loudly] Which our politicians and sociologists have provided? I ask you
this counter question. Is it so? Call the politicians and leaders of the
society to handle the situation here.
In a meeting, a prominent Muslim leader said, "I don't trust the prime
minister, I don't trust the home minister. I don't trust the chief minister.
And you, you are sent by these people I don't trust you." I said, "To have a
sense of distrust is alright. But to remove this distrust is my duty."
Don't you think there was erosion of state authority on February 28 when the
will of the state to govern was absent?
I wonder whether the erosion took place on February 28 or much earlier.
Because I have seen tambu tent pickets in communally sensitive areas --
which are there at few places -- since the last 20 years. I asked, 'Where
was the state authority when the police had to live in tambus all these
years? What is the state authority?'
It's the power of the state that is the police. If you can't put up one
police station there to handle communal situations or proper accommodation
for the unit, then where is the state authority? What are you talking about?
The state authority did not exist here. Okay these riots happened but how do
you ensure that such a thing never happens again?
Is the situation in Gujarat fit for the elections?
Yes. The state can face an election. Because if you look at the state today,
the disturbed areas are very limited. At the most we could exclude those
constituencies. They are a maximum of two or three. You have 182
constituencies and if two or three are disturbed that is manageable. The
process of an election reasserts democracy. It's a corrective process. It
helps change political equations.
In any case we have to have elections early next year. It will make a
difference of two or three months here or there.
Do you think Gujarat is a target of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence?
For quite some time the ISI never used Indian Muslims. Till recently. Most
of the Muslims, I would say 99 per cent have rejected the ISI. Only 1 per
cent falls into their trap. Look at the maturity of this country today. If
Gujarat had happened in 1992, the whole of UP, Bihar and Rajasthan would
have gone up in flames. This time it has not happened.
This is the salute to the people of India. If they can rise, I too thought
that let me too rise and serve in Gujarat. Aur agar reputation lose honi hai
to hogi [if I that embellishes my reputation, so be it]... at least I tried.
I wanted to understand the situation here. The police says they could not
find the appropriate response anywhere, not even with the higher-ups, so
that was, one would say, a failure.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
------------------------------
End of goanet-digest V1 #3996
*****************************
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--W-E-B--S-I-T-E--=-=-=
To Subscribe/Unsubscribe from GoaNet Digest | http://goacom.com/goanet
======================================================================
* Send e=mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT [EMAIL PROTECTED])
* Leave SUBJECT blank <--- Commom Mistake !!
* On first line of the BODY of your message, type:
subscribe goanet-digest YOUR.EMAIL
OR unsubscribe goanet-digest YOUR.EMAIL
DO NOT include the entire digest when replying to goanet !!!!!!
Questions/Problems? Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
