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Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responds:
Fred and a few others may be causing 'borem confusaum' on this topic. When we talk about caste, there are some well defined terminologies and groups.
This doesn't say anything, other than that you don't like my point of view :-)
First Fred negates that it is, "Brahmin-versus-Chardo battle in Goa". But then he goes on to add, "in reality, a jostling for posting among the two dominant groups". Of course he does not mention the groups.
Obviously, I'm talking about the very same two. I'd like to repeat my view here that caste in Catholic Goa is discussed *as if* it is an issue between Brahmin and Chardo (or vice versa). It *was* long defined as this under the dominant discourse, but actually such a debate is a kind of shadow-boxing (for turf) which excludes the vast majority of Catholic Goans and renders them invisible.
Often, the Chardo shouts "casteism" as a way of taking on Brahmin
dominance. A Brahmin trend is to see nothing, never talk about
it publicly (specially in a mixed setting) and yet be quite
gleeful about a non-existant ritualistic positioning that
supposedly placed him on top of the pecking order.Tujem sangok sarkem assa ki amcho Goemkaramcho ekvott nam mhunn.
As long as we don't quite treat each other as equals, the concept of "amcho Goemkaramcho ekvott" is a myth. Even if it's an assiduously promoted one at that!
From Victor Rangel Ribeiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 20 12:56:26 2004
Unfortunately, Fred omitted my follow-up sentence. Far from pushing caste under the rug, I write about it in my fiction. I believe I can more readily influence minds through my fiction writing---as in my novel, Tivolem, that deals with caste, prejudice, gossip, and the evil eye, among other issues--- than through personal argument and confrontation. The written word can be a powerful tool, and I will continue to use it.
I'm sorry about this, and apologise. Was just trying to make my point strongly, by quoting snippets I disagree with.
Victor is someone who has long impressed me by his attitude of
sharing knowledge, helping, giving a hand to youngers
to come up, and doing things for Goa regardless of who benefits.
These attributes, to me, say much more about his attitude to
caste than any badge, accident of birth, or verbal claims.From GodfreyJI [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Oct 20 23:38:07 2004
To elucidate take the case of the Confrarias the colour of the vests viz; red, white or purple worn OR feasts celebrated viz; Our Lady of Immaculate Conception or Feast of the Holy Spirit by the upper castes and then you have the St Michaels Feast of the lower castes or the Feast of St Francis Xavier celebrated by the traditional tailors. Is this not according to ones caste?
GodfreyJI's long and frank treatise on caste was both informative and well-argued. The jury is still out on the link between the Church and caste. Obviously the truth lies somewhere in between (Fr) Basilio Monteiro's argument in apologetics and GodfreyJI's all-blaming approach.
Even in marriages there is definitely the caste factor have we forgotten -- the codes banana chickoo and salt fish or Britisher to denote brahmin chardo and sudir or Gawda?
This bit is absolutely true, even though I learnt of it only very recently. Maybe (i) I'm quite poorly informed (ii) this is more prevalent in Salcete (iii) a mix of both. But it's true.
What I couldn't agree with one bit, however, was the following:
This writer has often been advocating to the Catholics that they need to accept ones caste origins --- there is nothing to be afraid of --- its origins and social engineering that is witnessed today in India is accepted openly by the Hindu community -- there are associations viz; Saraswat Brahmin Samaj , Kshatriya Maratha Samaj, Van Vasi (Scheduled tribes) Samaj and so on and on --- they even ensure that they look after the interests of their own community After all what is POLITICS all about in India is it not a permutation and combination of certain castes depending upon their percentages that finally craves to grab the treasury benches. Then why do the Catholics in India pretend that they are a casteless Society.
The problem with caste isn't caste in itself, but the fact that ingrained into it are in-built notions of superiority and inferiority. This goes against the very grain of a democratic one-(wo)man-one-vote principle, where people are judged by their individual attributes and not group identities.
In times when mass-education is playing the role of a great
leveller, and changing Goan society tremendously, the
incongruity of caste-based feelings of superiority or
inferiority is even more glaringly apparent. Migration is another great leveller, and I genuinely accept
the frankness with which some expats say, "Caste, what's that?"
We need to be moving towards a meritocracy, where each
individual is given a fair chance for all his/her talents to
bloom, and then judged on the basis of what talents s/he has.
Affirmative action is however not to be decried, just because
it cuts into the traditional cake of the already well-off. When certain groups manage to corner an unfair share of the
cream for themselves, you're going to see negative 'social
capital' and also market imperfections, that block growth. Caste is obviously going to remain of sociological importance,
maybe to understand who we are, where we come from. Also,
our histories. Maybe even where our ancestors were unfair
towards others (obviously harder to admit), or got bullied
by others. Etc, etc. But I don't think we can, or should, march forward into the
past and create networks on these lines. Like a businessman
has only one caste and one religion -- money, it makes more
sense -- likewise it would better for anyone who opts to
deal with all human beings without preconceived notions. My caste identity, if at all, should matter as much as my
blood group (A+), or the colour of my underwear (brown).
It is there, but doesn't entitle me to feel superior
or inferior to anyone else merely because of it being there.The day this is done the Catholic community will NO LONGER REMAIN a "prisoner of ones conscience"
Not sure if I understood you right here. Are you suggesting that Catholics are losing out because they don't play the game of caste permutations and combinations? I don't believe a religious minority can play a numbers game defined by a 'majority'-'minority' divide meant to put it on the defensive.
In fact it is this pessimism that is ruining the Catholic community and the stress of survival is witnessed by the fact that fundamental forces within the Church are screaming out loud and clear that JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD---- when the true Catholic teaching should have been RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS -- FOR ALL RELIGIONS LEAD US TO ONLYT ONE GOD
Come on mate, you're mixing up issues here. Christianity is still a monotheistic religion. If the Pope accepts (as Advani wanted him to) that all religions are equal, his main plank falls through. I think this is just the reality of monotheistic religions, and, like it or not, you have to accept it as part of most Semetic-influenced faiths.
The people pushing their religion down someone's throat has
got more to do with intolerance, and a failure to understand
what makes a multi-religious, multi-ethnic society.From Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Oct 21 23:38:04 2004
There is quite a lot of evidence of exactly that available. For one thing, look at the dismal figures of dalit Christian clergy in India (as compared to their ratio in the Christian population).
Maybe some reservation for dalit clergy at all levels of the church hierarchy would help? Or, rather than reservation, affirmative action along the lines of the US?
From Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 22 00:08:12 2004
1. Are we referring to Goa or are we talking about India? 2. Are we talking about the Catholic Church or the Christian church? 3. Has anybody heard about Dalit agitations in Goa? VG pl.respond! 4. What's the stat of chardo seminarians and pad-vigars? BM pl. respond!
Both connected points above.
First, Gadgil, I often fail to understand why the caste debate in
India is reduced to one of Dalits primarily. Agreed, the Dalits
being the most exploited, are a touchstone to test the sincerity
of our approach towards the worst off. Nevertheless, there are a whole lot of other deprived caste
groups that have a lot of issues to be addressed. Some clarity is
needed on this. Or else, we could end up with a parallel to what
happened to (mainly Hindu society) post-1961, where the intermediary
caste groupings raised the anti-caste flag, to primarily garner
a lot of benefits (albeit speaking under the catch-all 'Bahujan
Samaj' label) On the other hand, Gilbert, questioning about "Dalit agitations"
as if to deny any problem is unrealistic. Every (almost) so-called
Old Conquest village has its Maharvaddo, segregated at one end.
While this section may not suffer ritual pollution (they're
recognised as some of the best in the cullinary art), they still
face significant social disempowerment. But Dalits form a small percentage of the Goan population, maybe
below 5%. The bigger deprived segments include the Gawadas, the
Kunbis (both considered aboriginal communities, who get depicted
by what my friend Flaviano Dias used to call 'synthetic kunbis'
at river-cruise dances), and the Sudirs (Sudras). The good news is that as the Church ceases to be a traditional form
of social control, we're seeing more young men from the sub-altern
groups join the priesthood. Can we hope for a different Church,
with a genuine 'option for the poor', some decades down the line?From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Oct 22 00:08:12 2004
from 16th century to the end of the second world war, only boys coming from the bamon families were allowed to become priests ( the chhaddi boy most probably entered the portals of the seminary sometime during the 19th century ). is this not religious sanction of the caste system ?
I think you're failing to realise that religion was just *another* arena in the battle for dominance among the main two Catholic caste groupings. So were the newspapers (Herald and O Herald), the political parties (Partido Indiano and the-name-just-slipped-me), the clubs in various expat locations including Nairobi, the confraria, the candidates-for-sainthood, forms of music, and more.
Someone said the Portuguese found the local social hierarchy quite like theirs. Post-1961, the impact of Liberation Theology and newer egalitarian trends in Goa might have brought in some degree of change in the Church. Only time will tell whether that's taking place fast enough. FN
