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AHH... i 'm feeling nice about myself..i have such enlightened "big " people actually listening to me....that is bliss for a 19 year old who just barely gets by reading the goanet discussion lists....
Anyways...Thank u...Mr Lawrence and Mr Noronha for actually agreeing with me....anymore fans of my "logical thought processes.." u can express yourselves too..nothing like making my day...:D
i'm lookign forward to making soem more "intense " remarks about some more "intense " issues ....
Luv,
Marj
And i Don'T wanT the World to see me, coz i dont think that they'D undersTanD.
When evrything's Made To B broKen, i jusT wanT YOU to Know Who i am.......
sOnu......
----Original Message Follows---- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Goanet digest, Vol 1 #1577 - 13 msgs Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:04:03 -0500 Send Goanet mailing list submissions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Goanet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Goan Restaurants in the UK (Eddie Fernandes) 2. Re: Sausage quota? (Eddie) 3. Re: The lighter side ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 4. Re: The Rules - By Goan Men (Seb dc) 5. Re: american soldiers... (Seb dc) 6. Doing it for Goa (Gilbert Lawrence) 7. About Dabolim: Churchill to 707s and Vermicelli - A response to Philip Thomas (Dr. Jos� Cola�o) 8. Jumble Sale for Charity on 05 November 2004 (Seb dc) 9. Re: Sneaking admiration? (Gabriel de Figueiredo) 10. To Philip Thomas Re Dabolim Airport Debate (Gabriel de Figueiredo) 11. RE: RE: Floriano's Domicile Status story (Radhakrishnan Nair) 12. [GoanVoice-UK] Newsletter. Issue 2004-40. Oct 21, 2004 (Gabe Menezes) 13. GOANET-READER Caste... discrimination, old and new (Alito Siqueira) (GoanetReader) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Eddie Fernandes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goan Restaurants in the UK Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:20:17 +0100 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Folks, Yesterday I wrote that one restaurant I failed to include in the list of Goan restaurants in the UK was Suruchi in Edinburgh. Coincidentally today (24 Oct.), Scotland on Sunday carries a substantial (780 words) review of the restaurant: Headline: The height of good taste By: Richard Bath. The article mentions the pre-Christmas Goan Food Festival. Full text is at: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/spectrum.cfm?id=1228462004 The Suruchi website is at http://www.suruchirestaurant.co.uk/ Photographs of the owner, Herman Rodrigues, are at: http://www.edinburghpeoplesfestival.org.uk/2003/newscots/ Again coincidentally I visited the restaurant and met Herman when we visited Edinburgh at the time of the 2003 Festival. Cheers, Eddie Fernandes --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 22/10/2004 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Eddie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]Sausage quota? Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:41:35 +0300 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Cecil, When I asked a few families here they told me they get around 500/600 sausages. which will last them for 10/11months...I dont know about other gulf countries but I got similar reply from my friends in Kuwait... Pork is available in Bahrain, but not in SA and Kuwait...dunno about the rest of the gulf countries. For more details log on to www.cheuriskarn.com or contact the local cheuriskarn who will be able to give you the exact figures..:) BTW can you tell me, how many sausages does a Goan in Goa consume in six months? Regards Eddie Verdes PS: Can u pls tell me how many bottles of whiskey or Feni one is allowed to carry (officially) if you travel by air,bus,train from Goa to Mumbai? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cecil Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > What in your opinion is a full year's quota of sausages (in kg) for a Gulf > Goan: > Also during their one month annual holiday in Goa do they consume more > sausages than a Goan in Goa consumes in about six months? > > Cecil > > P.S. > Later I will widen my study to include alcohol consumption. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:17:33 +0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Re: The lighter side Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . >2. When NASA began the launch of astronauts into space, they found out that the pens wouldn't work at zero gravity (Ink won't flow down to the writing >surface).In order to solve this problem, it took them one decade and $12 And hear this one: During a recent space flight of NASA, the rocket just wouldn't take off. Everything was arranged, all the chief guest and everyone had come, and here the rocket is not taking off. There was panic in the NASA camp. They didnt know what to do. At this time, from the crowd, came a Goan guy who was on an H-1 visa doing some programming work for NASA. The NASA director first ignored him thinking what this Java programmer can do. But then the Goan guy insisted he can solve the problem of why NASA rocket is not taking off. Finally, after much deliberations among the team, and more out of sheer helplessness and to save his face, the NASA director decided to give this guy a chance. After all, the rocket was not taking off and all efforts by NASA engineers were in vain. So, they all huddled in one corner and let the Java programmer speak. After some thought, the Java programmer told the director that the rocket needs to be tilted to about 45 degrees for the take-off. No one believed him; but what to do? There was no choice; the rocket was anyway not taking off and NASA's reputation was at stake. Besides, the whole show was live on national TV. So, they agreed to do as the Java Programmer wanted. The shuttle was tilted to 45 degrees as per our man's wishes and every one waited with bated breath. 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...... and take off...and to everyone's surprise fumes started coming off, and zoom, the rocket did take off. Everyone was completed zapped. A Goan Java programmer had saved NASA's day, and perhaps the NASA director's job too. The TV crew -- ABC, NBC, what not --- all gathered round our Java programmer. Asked him how he knew this. Our man thought for a while and responded: it is as simple as this. In Goa, when our scooter doesn't start, we tilt it by 45 degrees, and start it! Cheers, Samir Kelekar --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Seb dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Cecil Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]The Rules - By Goan Men Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:24:01 -0700 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know the secret Lapit! Uska number nahim aata hai!! Cecil dear, stop this Matka business...you are on your way from Riches to Rags story...don't say i never warned you later. You will even loose the EXPRESSION on your face:-) hAVE a nICE dAY!! Seb > > Cecil Pinto-ko Gussa Kyon Atha Hai? > > Lapit > > > > --- Cecil Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > The Rules - This Time By Goan Men > > > > We always hear "the rules" from the female side. Now > > here are the rules > > from the male side. Specifically Goan males. > > > > ---------- > > 1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. > > If it's up, put it > > down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't > > hear us bitching about you > > leaving it down. And if you complain too much we > > will revert back to the > > pig toilets. > > > > 2. Sunday = Fishing, Football and Feni. It's like > > the full moon or the > > changing of the tides. Let it be. > > > > 3. Crying is blackmail. Go to your mother's place > > for a few days. But don't > > cry. I will send you flowers through EXPRESSIONS! > > > > 4. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this > > one: Subtle hints do not > > work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not > > work! Just say it! > > This is not a subtle Steven Speilberg movie. It is a > > blatant Prince Jacob > > tiatr. Do not leave anything to the imagination. > > > > 5. We don't remember dates. Mark birthdays and > > anniversaries on the > > calendar in the kitchen where you mark how many panv > > and poeis and kanknna > > the poder delivers everyday. Remind us frequently > > beforehand. We will send > > the list to EXPRESSIONS (The Flower Shop) to take > > care of the matter. > > > > 6. Come to us with a problem only if you want help > > solving it. That's what > > we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends and sisters > > are for. And Lepoldin > > Aunty. > > > > 7. If you think you're looking like an Old Aunty, > > you probably are. Don't > > ask us. We refuse to answer. > > > > 8. Let us ogle. We are going to look anyway; it's > > genetic. It's Goan. > > > > 9. You have enough clothes. You have too many shoes. > > There are only so many > > village feasts in a year. > > > > 10. Varieties of Feni are as exciting for us as > > handbags are for you. > > ==== > > > > > > > > > ===== > http://www.goa-world.net/poems > > http://www.goa-world.net/poems/lino > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Seb dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]american soldiers... Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Growup chaps, you'll are making goanetter's feel unsecure with those remarks!! > > I too am willing to settle to Marjorie's synthesis... without taking any > liberties on the "Marj Luv" bit ;-). FN > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Gilbert Lawrence wrote: > > > Gilbert Lawrence responds: > > > > Marj Luv, > > Your post is just too logical for us! > > We could do with more posts that have such clear reasoning! > > Regards. > > > > > > Marjorie Carvalho: > > The subject of the American soldiers visit is creating such a furor > > after Mr. fred said that they were welcome jus coz of their > > dollars....well...im not disagreeing, but why cant anyone just see it > > this way...they DID bring dollars with them n whther we like it or not, > > money is important..and there was an illusion atleast created of > > welcome...so..ignorance is bliss..the americans enjoyed their stay i > > presume, and yes......the subject of their painting the classrooms, > > at least they painted ONE classroom, i'm not saying that is the ultimate > > in social service ..LOL...but they did it, and that's a good thing > > right? > > Luv, Marj > > --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:18:43 -0400 Subject: [Goanet]Doing it for Goa Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gilbert Lawrence: Rene, I was hoping your series of very perceptive questions would have generated a long lists of requests from cyberGoans seeking SPECIFIC MEDICAL HELP from Goan doctors for Goa or the Goan Diaspora. Of course we would do our best to oblige even at the cost of being accused of having "an ulterior motive in this modern day public relations world we live in" a.k.a. Doing it for PR. Regards. Rbarreto: CAN the Goan Doctors world wide be of any help to the Goans in Goa and the Goan community at large? Should they get involved in helping Goans at all? or should they continuing making their point of view on the Goan Forums we belong to? Can the Goan Doctors come TOGETHER to work for the betterment of the Goan community? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dr. Jos� Cola�o" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:37:38 +0000 Subject: [Goanet]About Dabolim: Churchill to 707s and Vermicelli - A response to Philip Thomas Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Philip Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 24 05:44:42 2004 <For his fascinating glimpses into Portuguese Goa's (international) civil aviation history one has to give the guy his due. I say "Bravo!" to that. But I am afraid his linguistic aerobatics might leave one unimpressed. :( > Dear baba Philip, I write NOT to impress you or anyone else. This material was already at hand - ready for a Post Script to what Gabriel de Figueiredo is writing on Goa's own airline TAIP for The Goan Forum website. So...Thanks for the Bravo......Bravo yer-own self . Have I not said to you in an earlier post that you (Philip) might benefit from acquainting yourself with Dabolim. I repeat that. I am totally impressed by your fascinating non-knowledge of Dabolim. Hence the intriguing quality of your questions and the frequent ' movement of the goal post' See where you have reached......from Churchill...to Goans next (possibly) objecting to AAI, to now 707 aircraft landing in Dabolim. What non-flying (to Goa) 707s have to do with the Navy NOT allowing convenient civilian aircraft access to Goa's civilian airport, beats me. Apologies if my writing produces Acid Reflux for some. Sometimes, Acid Reflux is a natural result of being force-fed Junk Food. Besides, that's is the nature of "Sashticars from Ilhas". You are unlikely to find them sitting on the proverbial FENCE of Political Correctness. About Linguini and other Vermicelli stuff, were you writing about this "GUY and his Linguistic Aero/Acrobatics" ? Philip Thomas on Sat Oct 23 11:10:02 2004 : # 1. <But then who knows if there were "absolutely" no civil flights at Dabolim in Portuguese times?> After all the e-conversation we and others have had - there must be some meaning to the above query from you. good wissis from this side of Dabolim and Viva Liberacion and yes......Have a good Sunday. jc PS: I hope you did not mind me using a couple of Konkani words wrt Dabolim. That is one area in need of some spoken Konkani, Mano, Zatra ani Tiatr.......et at least a few Cook, Butler jobs for Goans (;-). please visit "NEW" on The Goan Forum at http://www.colaco.net Recommended Goa related sites 1. http://www.goa-world.com 2. http://www.SuperGoa.com _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Seb dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:54:24 -0700 Subject: [Goanet]Jumble Sale for Charity on 05 November 2004 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear charitable colleagues & friends, The Youth group at the St. Mary's Church - Dubai is organising a Jumble Sale for Charity on 05 November 2004 which is an annual event. 'Charity begins at home' so here's your chance to be charitable by emptying your home of the stuff you'd like to donate to help the under-privileged. We'd accept anything that is in reasonably good condition and saleable. Item categories could be: Clothes & Shoes/ bags Toys Potted plants Household items Books & Stationery Your own creations/ homemade items Picture frames, paintings, sketches, glass paintings etc Collectables, antiques etc Contact Person: Freeda Alphonso (National Field Support Officer) Location: 4th Floor - EK Aviation College Telephone contact: Office - 2187424, Cell- 050-5457120 OR you could drop your stuff off at St. Mary's church. Get in touch with Sr. Kusumi (in-charge of the collections) at the Sister's Convent (beside the church canteen). Please ensure you mark the bag/s 'FOR JUMBLE SALE - NOV 2004'. Would appreciate it if you could get your contributions/donations to us before the 27th of October 2004. Thanks Best regards and God Bless HR - National Development Dept. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:35:21 +1000 (EST) From: Gabriel de Figueiredo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]Sneaking admiration? To: "Frederick Noronha\(FN\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Frederick Noronha(FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And I hope that a sneaking (or not-so-sneaking) admiration of the pre-1961 Portuguese regime that seems to linger among a tiny but vocal section doesn't get the upper hand, so as to ruin a perfectly good case about placing economic and societal needs ahead of military assumptions. ========================== Fred, My pronouncements have little to do with sneaking (or otherwise) admiration for the pre-1961 Portuguese *regime* - people & environment & conviviality = yes, regime = no. Please understand what Bernardo, I, Paulo and others are stating here. It has zip to do with the Salazarist regime. Remember that Goa in 1961 was governed by and large by Goans (read what judge B.K Bohman-Behram wrote in 1955 in "Goa and Ourselves" ). The police consisted mostly of Goans, the army was a hotch-potch of people from various colonies including Goans as well. I understand that one of the military people on the Portuguese side that was killed at Anjediva in Dec 1961 was a Goan, Vassu Damuno Ganencar. Goans were working towards independence, not just "liberation". All the talk at the "Pedda" in Loutolim, from what I can remember as a child, was about "independencia". Whatever the detractors to this idea may think of or might have thought of, there was a good chance that there could have been a symbiotic relationship between Goa and India, and the intellectuals of the day (like Bruto da Costa) were working on this idea (albeit in fear of PIDE and Salazar) until Nehru (or rather Menon) provided a "short-circuit" that cost Goans their chance to prove themselves that they could stand on their own feet and not be "aided" by a "liberator". That is probably why some of the real freedom-fighters left Goa in disgust. The armed action of India is the reason why I don't feel Indian. I might come from the Indian sub-continent, but I consider myself as a Goan. I was made to feel Indian by force, not by affection; by betrayal, not confidence. Gabriel. P.S. A reading of http://www.colaco.net/1/goa1964a.htm would be worth it; the article gives a number of references which you could check out for yourself, as a journalist. I have just finished reading "Gift of the Holy Cross" by Lino Leitao; though fictional, the sentiments of Book IV echo mine. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:56:35 +1000 (EST) From: Gabriel de Figueiredo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]To Philip Thomas Re Dabolim Airport Debate Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Philip: But then who knows if there were "absolutely" no civil flights at Dabolim in Portuguese times? Did the ex-rulers and civilians only travel by military flights? What kind of planes used Dabolim in those days anyway? They would have had to be reasonably long range planes to cross the Arabian Sea non-stop. Why would any Dakotas or Viscounts want to operate in tiny Goa? Did any Boeing 707 jets ever make an appearance at Dabolim since they entered the aviation scene in the late 1950s? ================== Philip, Please read my submission of the 16 Sep 2004 on goanet at http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/2004-September/110262.html , which will probably explain why Dr. Colaco replied to you in the manner he did. This submission will give you an insight into what Dabolim was pre-1961, and that a) Dabolim was a civilian aiport b) the IAF found "no takers" for their baiting missions of early Dec 1961, indicating that there were *no* military aircraft at the airport. Furthermore, the airports at Dabolim, Damao and Diu were not protected by anti-aircraft guns (or any armament for that matter), indicating their true purpose as being entirely civilian premises. I am currently revising that document (with photographs of the TAIP aircraft and some more documentary evidence) before it is put up on www.colaco.net. Cheers, Gabriel. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:07:52 +0530 Subject: [Goanet]RE: RE: Floriano's Domicile Status story Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't be so mean, Dr JC! You being a medical doctor, that too a paediatrician, one would expect a little more enlightened and charitable view from you. How preposterous of you to suggest that a pregnant woman would travel hundreds of kms to deliver her baby just for a ration card! What do you think your Goa is -- the land of milk and honey? I don't mean to denigrate Goa here. I cherish that beautiful land and the wonderful people there. Nor am I forgetting the fact that it provided me a decent job when I needed it. But these unfortunate, underprivileged women who give birth in Goa are there for food and shelter in exchange of their toil -- and not for ration cards as you postulate. But then who can convince a prejudiced mind? Regards, RKN >Dear Florianobab, Here is something which amche nidun-aslelle Goecar might find worth noting: There are a good number of pregnant women in Karnataka & Hyderabad who pack their khatli-potli and travel to Goa for delivery. Not that the hospital facilities in Goa are good (they might coincidentally be) - but for an incentive allowance paid for by the "Chairmen of the Voting Banks" After delivery, the next stop is the Mamlatdar. A ration Card later - they then become eligible (along with their family - with Panchayat residence certificates .... of course) for MEDICLAIM covered Health Care. Goans pay taxes.....and guess who gets the benefit of MEDICLAIM - besides the politicians? Ani amche Goemcar Journos? ANY CHANCE of hearing anything about this scam from them? Amche ponticar Soooooooo-shhe-gadd bosleat Viva Liberacion! Kitem mhuntai re Georgebab? _________________________________________________________________ The all-new MSN Mesenger! Get the coolest emoticons. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/messengerchat/ Share more of yourself! --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:02:42 +0100 Subject: [Goanet][GoanVoice-UK] Newsletter. Issue 2004-40. Oct 21, 2004 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "Eddie Fernandes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wrote:- To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:18 PM Subject: [Goanet]Re: [GoanVoice-UK] Newsletter. Issue 2004-40. Oct 21, 2004 > Now we have threats! It saddens me to drag this sordid business of Gabe's > accusations into the open but I must do so because only last month I wrote > to him privately and thought it had been settled. Now it is has been raised > yet again. It is not right for GoaNet be subject continually to unfounded > allegations and mudslinging. Therefore, hopefully for the last time, this > is briefly my version of the events: RESPONSE: It seems that we have reached an impasse, it is like pulling teeth, to get an apology - this being the case, it is just not worth pursuing. I shall not even invoke the assistance of the Sage of Saligao in this matter. Eddie Fernandes, your contention is that you do not know about the email in which you accused me of raping the GOA (U.K.) Ltd and/or do not remember this incident. As God is your witness; (I trust you believe in God, either faith or causes and effects) you contend that you have no knowledge of what I am referring to, I shall call it a day on this and move on! It is not just a matter of an apology but also - this is paramount - a matter of credibility and integrity. I cannot be fairer than that! There was no threat implied except to infer that justice usually gets doled out. I would not use a sledgehammer to crack a nut! Cheers, Gabe --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:17:42 +0530 From: GoanetReader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]GOANET-READER Caste... discrimination, old and new (Alito Siqueira) Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EVEN AS WE DISCUSS CASTE, NEW CATEGORIES OF DISCRIMINATION ARE EMERGING By Alito Siqueira [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caste as an institution has always been dynamic, fluid, complex, nuanced, multi-faceted and layered and sensitive. We know little about caste in pre-colonial society except that it was probably intensely localised (the relationships were within and between 'jatti' and not the more global 'varna' or castes). It was also deeply implicated in the temple complex, which itself was the institution for the redistribution of symbolic, ritual, economic and social resources -- in a word an institution and forum deeply implicated in the political. Catholicism and Colonialism in the 16th century were the first modernity to arrive in India. Wherever Catholicism as handmaiden to colonialism went, it always integrated into the receiving society. (It never wiped out the existing society except perhaps in the Americas, where it was possible only through the decimation of the native peoples themselves). This sort of 'syncretism' is integral to the spread of any religion (including Christianity to Europe -- witness the number of Roman elements in European Christianity) that matter to any inter-cultural transfer. In the Konkan, whether Catholicism was 'castised' or caste was catholicised depends on the vantage point from which one sees it. In more general terms this amounts to the 'Konkanisation' of Catholicism (or vice versa, Hinduism as a universal religion was yet to get its nomenclature and form then). Catholicism always retained a very ambivalent relationship with what we once termed 'Konknopon'. Sometimes hostile, as in the Inquisition edicts, and at other times accommodative, as in caste and other rituals. Hereditary hierarchy was not new to the Church and it celebrated the same back at home and in the colonies. EQUALITY, ONLY IN THE EYES OF GOD --------------------------------- Equality was only in the eyes of God. The French Revolution and the equality of men on Earth (women have had to wait) was still two centuries away. There was no separation of the secular from the religious domain and hence the hierarchies and the power pyramid in society matched those of the Church and vice versa. Caste as a social (which also meant religious) hierarchy was taken for granted up at least into the late 18th century. Caste was not part of superstitious or negative 'konknopon' and there seems to have been no ambivalence as regards the desirability of the system among Catholics or the Church. Since hierarchy was an important question it seems quite 'natural' that the first two books published by native Goans (which also received the imprimatur) were by a Bamon and Chardo priest, each celebrating the superiority of his caste. (See Antonio Joao de Frias, (1892), [first published in 1702]: Avreola dos Indio: Nobiliarchia Bracmana. Tratado. Historico, Genealogico, Panegyrico, Politico & Moral. Bombaim: Livraria, P. A. Fialho and Leonardo Pais (1892), [first published in 1713]: Promptuario das Difinicoes Indicas Deduzidas de Varios Chronistas da India, Graves Authores, Historias Gentilicas. Bombay: Livraria P. A. Fialho.). However caste among Goan Catholics exhibits significant differences. Caste morphed. Converts were encouraged to change from polluting occupations which positioned them in the lowest rung of the caste hierarchy to baking, wine-making (the products used during sacraments), and thereby experience upward mobility. (Robinson Rowena (2003): Christians of India, Delhi: Sage). This is not the case among all other Indian Christians and Catholics. For instance the 'untouchables' seem non-existence in Goa -- though the lowest caste were geographically separated discriminated form the rest of the village. (Perez, Rosa Maria, (1997). 'Hinduism and Christianity in Goa: The Limits of Caste', in Rosa Maria Perez et. al. (eds) Stories of Goa. Lisbon: National Museum of Ethnology). Yet the Mahars are sometimes the 'professional' cooks at upper caste celebrations (something generally unthinkable among the Hindu). This was part of the indigenous logic of caste and not the ingeniousness of the Portuguese missionary statesman (there is enough evidence to show such movement under the Moghuls and earlier). The illustrations here show the political significance of both caste and religion. The second and later modernity came to India with British colonialism. Much of what we know to be the 'caste system' today was constructed (I hesitate to use the word 'created') during and in collaboration with British colonialism. THE BRITISH, AND CASTE ---------------------- Armed with enlightenment rationality, Europe and the Orientalist discourse held, or simply assumed, that the essence of Indian civilisation was just the opposite of the West. It is the irrational (but rationalizable) institution of 'caste' and the Indological religion that accompanies it, Hinduism. Human agency in India is displaced by Indological discourse not on to a reified State or Market but onto a substantialised Caste. Given this, it was only 'natural' for European scholars, traders, and administrators to appropriate the power of Indians (not only the 'masses' but also of the 'elite') to act for themselves. (Ronald Inden, (1990). Imagining India. Cambridge, Mass.: Basil Blackwell Ltd.). While demonising one form of hereditary stratification, Britain and the enlightenment simultaneously firmly put in place another form of rigid segregation namely that of race which was far more fluid under earlier colonial rulers. The British sought to equate 'jattis' across the country, arriving at some universal hierarchy and conducting a census which sort to fix, define and close the position of each individual and his 'jatti'. Through the census enumerating of castes British colonialism universalised a generic caste system across the subcontinent and attempted to force the institution to loose much of its local indigenousness, fluidity and dynamics. (see, Arjun Appadurai, (1997), Numbers in the Colonial Imagination, Modernity at Large: Cultural Dimensions of Globalisation. Delhi; Oxford University Press.) Indeed the whole idea that the village was a "simple, closed and fixed" community and institution itself needs to be interrogated as such notions emerged to justify the superiority of the complexity of modernity. Such simplistic notions hardly do justice to the complexity of caste as it was or is. The system was simplified and ossified; its dynamic character denied. The explanations of the origins of caste as an earlier form of simple economic division of labour subsequently ritualised and hardened, or conspiracy theories which see caste as cunning creations of the haves are based on the flawed assumption that Indian society was 'simple' (read naive or rather simplistic) and therefore cannot simply account for the complexity and dynamic experience of castes as it was or is. Beginning with the false assumption of its superiority because of its complexity (e.g. Spence) Enlightenment Europe separated religion from politics, removed caste from the domain of politics and placed it in religion; thereby India was simple and superstitious. This helped Europe not only rationalise its own superiority but so also provided the justification for dominating India. Consequent to the French Revolution, the Portuguese took a cue from the British and reassessed their relationship with caste. The much celebrate Cunha Rivara, the nineteenth century secretary to the Governor of Goa, who was perhaps the first Portuguese Orientalist, commented "all the native elite condemn this native Indian system of casta and suggest a million measures for its abolition. However it would have been enough if only half of those who condemn this system practice what they preached by marrying their daughters to persons of other castes." (Cunha Rivara in Brados a favor das Communidades). The abhorrence we seem to share towards caste seems to be echoes from the internalization of British colonial perspectives on caste. British Colonialism from the mid 19th century led to the out migration of Goans. On the one hand, among the Catholic, this led to blurring caste differences but at once also more vocal conflicts between castes. (witness the division of the Aldona communidade into two castes see, Artur da Rocha e Sa, (1929). Legislacao Relativa as Comunidades Agricolas de Goa. Nova Goa: Tipografia Braganza & Cia.). Out migration of the Catholic also had an impact on caste among Hindu. Lower castes Hindu in-migrants from the New Conquests to the Old Conquests were able to move upwards from polluting to non-polluting professions. This has led to Goa having less than 2% scheduled castes as compared to the national average of 27%. CASTE, DISTRIBUTING ITSELF IN RELIGION -------------------------------------- Sometimes one gets the impression that it was the Church perhaps that witnessed best the distribution of castes, as for example where castes it appears neatly distributed themselves between the diocesan and religious orders. The Church then was closely aligned with Portuguese colonial State too. Caste in Goa is of particular academic interest precisely because it predates the British construction. Goa perhaps is a space which provides us with an experiment of counter factual history where we could study what caste may have been were not the British to have ossified it and celebrated (in the negative) it the way they did. There has been too little work on understanding caste in Goa in part I should think because we continue to inhabit the biases left by the British. Post-independence in India, the major concern among scholars of democracy was casteism in election and politics. Rajni Kothari sometime in the 70s pointed out that it was not politics that was becoming casteist but rather that caste was getting politicized (further morphing?). Indeed the alignments and realignments that have been seen of castes and the violence that sometimes accompanies it is testimony not only to the fluidity of caste but much more so to the constant challenge and re-fashioning of 'traditional' caste exploitation and humiliation. Caste today means very different things than what it meant then. If in the early part of the last century castes clamoured for higher positions in the hierarchy, today castes clamour for lower position (some justifiable some not) if only to benefit from the preferential discrimination policies of the State. Clearly caste is performing a very different function from what it once deed yet not entirely independent of its earlier function. Such has always been the complexity of caste. Among the Catholic in India it is perhaps Tamil Nadu that has witnessed the most acute strife both within the Church (and clergy) and outside. The Church, which at the time of India's Independence had felt that no reservations in Government jobs and educational opportunities were necessary among Christian Dalits as the religion did not allow for caste, has since reversed its position and has asked for the inclusion of Dalit Christian (including Catholic) in the list to scheduled castes for whom reservations may be made by the State. This is a recognition by the Church of the debilitating and humiliating existential experience of the lower castes and marks a shift from upper caste indifference to an attention to the voice and suffering of its flock. The credit goes as much to those lower castes that have been able to struggle and voice their condition and bring an indifferent Church to heed. DOMINANT CASTES, POLITICS, CULTURE, ECONOMY ------------------------------------------- Post-liberation in Goa, the blurring of boundaries across castes has intensified and among the lowest castes many have been able to rid themselves of traditional occupations. The dominant caste in political terms has changed, but much more slowly in cultural and economic terms. As regards the Church, it is difficult to suggest that the Church has taken the lead but rather it seems that it has followed the social changes that have occurred perhaps not always at a pace. At a more personal level, in Goa, and perhaps outside, caste (so does religion and importantly class) does play an important role if nowhere else at least many a time at the time of marriage. But there are also domains where its presence is less conspicuous. In Goa, the more vocal and violent conflicts within the Catholic have tended to be across the axis of Ganvkars and non-Ganvkars. Most often, this is within the same caste and demonstrating yet another complexity of our society. The Church as an institution has grown out of and grown up in society. Many of its institutions (including the Confrarias) and ritual celebrations (such as feasts) gain their history and meaning from within social institutions that have nurtured and fostered it such as the communidade and caste. Burrowed institutions and movements like the Basic Christian Communities and Charismatic are valiant efforts to fashion community differently, and do not seem to have captured the mass imagination. Perhaps we need to be more creative and more attentive to the complex public sphere that Goa is. Caste today is a peculiarly and exclusively Indian question. It hardly helps to isolate the Catholic. If at all it should bring about greater humility among the Catholic as to their religion and faith and help realize that the Catholic religion was and is in no way superior to the other (something I was made to believe in childhood, and which continues to come across to me as the dominant even if unexpressed text among the Catholic). Attention with regards to caste must turn towards the most harrowing experiences of caste which continue among the Dalit. If I am permitted some poetic (or melodramatic) license "so long as the last Indian Dalit (no matter what her religion) is humiliated, it makes little difference if the Church exhibits or does not exhibit caste." If Indian society changes, the Church will surely follow suit as it almost always has. The only way of battling caste in the Church is battling caste in Society. Resisting caste in the Church is also battling caste in one social institution. Any effort to isolate caste among the Catholic or rid the Church of Caste is to misunderstand caste, Goa and religion (Catholic or otherwise). Perhaps the arrogance of the Catholic faith (in some) is born in the belief that the Church can be outside caste -- in a word, outside politics, of which caste is just one dimension. Once I too thought that the way of dealing with caste was not to mention caste, and particularly ones own. This is perhaps a genuine personal attempt to express one abhorrence and an intention to subvert the system. I have been painfully taught (sometimes through chance living and communicating with Dalits) that this was simple naivete or worse insidious. It was a way of ridiculing caste but refusing to engage with it, since I did not need to make overt use of caste. That perhaps not mentioning castes may also amount to using it and caste, like beauty, gives the maximum return when one wears it casually most un-self consciously. Caste is a form of cultural capital that has accrued over generations, that has allowed for opportunities that others were, and continue to be, denied because they lacked the caste. Connecting with caste is on the other hand entering into risky, murky, messy and bruising engagement froth with misunderstandings. But has anything worthwhile been gained without bruises? Sometimes talking about it and sometimes not -- a bit like guerilla warfare -- never being very sure what will work and what will back-fire, indeed as complex as caste itself is. DENYING CASTE, ACCEPTING IT --------------------------- To be philosophical; "to deny caste one must first accept it and above all what one has intentionally or otherwise gained or suffered from or through it". U. R Anathamurty (of 'Samskara' fame) said somewhere "I gave up caste long ago but caste refuses to give me up". To live in the realization of both moments is to engage with caste. To remain in denial is to refuse to heal. Of course the complain of caste discrimination sometimes mask other issues, the jockeying for power or petty personal politics as some will call it. But it is just as true that caste discrimination is denied or trivialized by masking them as personal or other differences or questions of competence. First, social conflict is about power and caste is only one of the axis of power along with class, gender, education, religion, language, place of employment or residence, currency in which one earns ones living, ganvkar/non-ganvkar, Goan/non-Goan (to talk of some of the variables of power that enter into the debate in almost any issue in Goa, from the question of environment to the Dabolim airport). Hence it is expected that any conflict will be fought along a number of axis and only in the rare of rarest cases be along a single axis. Secondly, power is not mostly about fact but about discourse. It is discourse that changes the contours of power. How else would have caste morphed in the ways shown above if not discourses that re-fashioned and reconstructed caste? So, the complain of discrimination must be understood as a discourse that seeks to challenge the modes by which is exercised -- the truth is not to be judged not purely in terms of comparing it with the facts but much more so in terms of whether it resonates or echoes in society. GOODBYE TO BEGGARS IN GOA'S CAPITAL ----------------------------------- As we engage with questions of caste, new categories and forms of exploitation and discrimination emerge in Goa. The Government has just announced that within one month, through the use of its police force, it hopes to rid Panjim of all its beggars and those who need to use public spaces to defecate and urinate. I am sure there will be much welcome for this move. But why one month? Because for the next one month Panjim needs labouring classes who are doing up Panaji (so they are therefore permitted to use public places). What happens to these new classes (often called 'ghatis') after that? They will be banished from the city so that it remains clean for the tourist who descend upon the city. But can the city survive without labour? And who will clean the mess left behind? Are those who build the city only meant to provide labour and not to enjoy the benefits of their labour? (It appears the the Government of Goa has stated that since most labour in Goa come from outside the State, i.e. are 'non-Goan', the Government must not be burdened by providing them any social security or privilege them as citizens of the State. Perhaps Goan labour who work outside Goa would see a bell ringing here.) And what about the beggars? They may populate the surrounding villages and towns? I am reminded of Heidelberg which is dressed during the day for Japanese and other well-oiled tourists. By the night, Turkish immigrants are brought in bus-loads to clean the city. By day, the immigrants are hidden in high rise colonies behind the hills which protect the medieval tourist city from its cleaners (and Germany keeps debating what to do with its Turkish immigrants, granting them citizenship in ounces). The point here is that Goan society is now slowly acquiring a new section to exploit and humiliate and while we discuss caste among the Goans let us also engage with the new modes of exploitation and humiliation that are emerging. Saying they are non-Goans is just not good enough. So were two centuries ago the people of the New Conquest, who are now the majority in the Old Conquests, and so are the number of Goans who eke out their living abroad making their contributions to the society they have chosen or found themselves working and living in. FOOTNOTE: I started giving the references because some of those of the net are academics who might like to see the sources themselves, but then abandoned it as it was getting much too long and taking too much time and I would once again miss the opportunity of adding my two bits as Goanet www.goanet.org moved on to other issues. Thanks for inviting me and providing me the opportunities. ALITO SIQUEIRA is a sociologist at the Goa University. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- GOANET-READER WELCOMES contributions from its readers, by way of essays, reviews, features and think-pieces. We share quality Goa-related writing among the 7000-strong readership of the Goanet/Goanet-news network of mailing lists. If you appreciated the thoughts expressed above, please send in your feedback to the writer. Our writers write -- or share what they have written -- pro bono, and deserve hearing back from those who appreciate their work. 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